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02291: Re: [WDDM] Why I support World Government?

From: Lata Gouveia <latalondon(at)yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 06:27:17 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: [WDDM] Why I support World Government?

Sure,
I agree with you Hamid, players might behave differently in real life.

But a game is a good way to develop and test democratic mechanisms, voting systems etc, without messing with people's "real" lives, better than imposing a new system has not been tested and might exist only in your head. At least that's what I thought.

Also, a game can turn serious very quickly too. For instance, if we decide to start petitioning or if we decide to enter the "real" economy with this model of communal management, then it begins to have some kind of impact in the real world. So far, this game has already surprised me and made me re-assess some aspects of a political perspective which I thought was flawless.

The degree of certainty and rigidness with which you write and your complete dismissal of a very complex and work intensive experiment makes me think that perhaps you live in the safe world of your own opinions. Try putting them to the test sometime, otherwise they won't be any good to anyone. When you test your own opinions, there is a degree of humility that tends to creep in... and that some of us could do with.

Thanks for the "constructive" criticism, though. It's been noted.

Lata


From: Esi <esi1mohseni2(at)hotmail.com>
To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
Sent: Saturday, 12 September, 2009 21:15:39
Subject: Re: [WDDM] Why I support World Government?

Hi Lata

A game can not reflect the reality. A game does not affect your real life so you play most after your desires and curiousity about the results.
In a real direct democratic system people are more careful when they vote and the consequences of that for their real life.
 
Hamid

Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 8:00 PM
To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
Subject: Re: [WDDM] Why I support World Government?

Hi Doug,
I like your idea about competence tests, etc.

We have been trying a model in the form of a game. It is far from perfect, trust me, there is a lot of room for improvement.
The game has been running for 4 Rounds and now, on the 5th Round there will be a competence test that will be tied to the players participation ratios to define the weight of their vote. The cycle will be complete and a community decision will be made.

The data I have collected over the past 5 weeks about voting behaviour might not be incredibly relevant yet because the players are not yet playing strategically. Once they complete the cycle, the players that keep playing will probably develop strategies that I cannot foresee. What I can foresee though, is that some of them will quit. You see, whilst the debate forums are very popular, well frequented and need urgent improvement to deal with the amount of traffic we get, the actual decision-making has been (surprisingly for me) very hard to achieve. People are so used to representative systems that, when confronted with having to make decisions, they come back saying that it's wrong to impose our will on anyone else. Very interesting indeed. It makes me think that the horrific democratic deficit that we can identify in every representative system  is not, for most people, the problem, it is a virtue. It gives them escape goats and deflects personal responsibility. I am beginning to think that, deep down that is what people want, even if they are ashamed to admit it.

If you have time, have a look at our constitutional framework and have a look around the sight. It might inspire you.
If anyone wants to join, by all means, please do
http://citizenmundi.wordpress.com/
Lata





From: Doug Everingham <dnevrghm(at)powerup.com.au>
To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
Sent: Saturday, 12 September, 2009 8:39:01
Subject: Re: [WDDM] Why I support World Government?

I share most of te views expressed by Lata and Fred
(excerpts  below included) and (like Lata) wiah a programmer could follow up the ideas.
Democracy is so often identified wth "1 voter. 1 vote" that we overlook existing qualifications (mature age, sound mind, balloting literacy, separate systems for choosing law makers, law interreters and implementers).  There is a case for loading a vote b ya competence test based on political 'literacy' / certificate, or stages somewhat  like the  L  (for learner)  P  (provisional)  etc. to be held / displayed by licensed vehicle drivers in Australia.
–Doug Everingham
====

Subject: Re: [WDDM] Why I support World Government?
Date: 1 August 2009 2:24:40 AM
To:   wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
Reply-To:   wddm@world-wide-democracy.net

Good Morning, Lata

Regarding your message of Fri, 31 Jul 2009 07:24:51 +0000 (GMT)

re: "'You say that we don't need a government but instead just
     need to solve problems "such as how to feed the community,
     how to provide adequate water...' etc.  Well, that's
     government ..."

Well said!!!

The balance of your argument is equally irrefutable.  I chose this brief excerpt simply as an example.


re: "... we have a problem with being 'represented' by somebody
     who does not know us, does not care, somebody who has their
     own agenda and career to worry about and a society which
     does not think we are smart enough or responsible enough to
     grasp the skills of government."

Well said!!!

And, again, merely a brief excerpt from an excellent observation.


This is the crux of the matter.  While I realize you said (on May 14th) ...

   "I don't usually respond to the correspondence I get from
    WDDM. Most of the time I find that its members cannot break
    away from the mindset of "vigorous" debate, which is
    perceived to be such an important feature of any democratic
    system. It goes around in circles." ...

I wonder if you would be willing to discuss the specific problem you identified here?

I read and understand the game you proposed (on May 14th), but:

1) at the moment it does not (so far as I know) exist,

2) participation would be limited to those with the equipment and
   ability to play the game (which is not universal), and

3) it is at least one level removed from human interaction.

The little bit of your material I've been privileged to read tells me you are uncommonly thoughtful.  Could we exchange some ideas on representative government, either privately or in this forum?

Fred Gohlke




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