Re: [WDDM] Repeted answer to Antonio

[Antonio Rossin <rossin(at)tin.it>]

Giorgio Menon ha scritto:
> > > > > History has always shown just one face of democracy, no matter how
> > > > > you
> > > > > like to write it. It's about 2500 years that the elites are
> > > > > "democratically"
> > > > > ruling the people.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't follow you, here. The term for the elites ruling the people
> > > > is oligarchy,
> > > > and not "democracy". Period.
> > >
> > >
> > > Read on Wiki:
> > > "All the Athenian citizens were eligible to speak and vote in the
> > > Assembly, which set the
> > > laws of the city-state, but neither political rights, nor
> > > citizenship, were granted to women
> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women>, slaves
> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaves>, or
> > > metics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metics>.  Of the 250,000
> > > inhabitants only some
> > > 30,000 on average were citizens. Of those 30,000 perhaps 5,000 might
> > > regularly attend
> > > one or more meetings of the popular Assembly."
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
> > >
> > > Are you trying to convince me that 5,000 citizens out of 250,000 is
> > > not an elite?
> >
> >
> > This is an old question, rather a quarrel, in this list.  I'm quite
> > prepared tp
> > answer it.   ;-)
> >
> > If we have a group of, say,  5,000 members who want to give themselves
> > democratic rules for processing their own affairs, that id no elite
> > but a
> > democratic group.
> > If you take this 5,000 people democratic group and insert it into a
> > larger,
> > say, 300,000 people collectivity and the 5,000 want to implement their
> > "democratic rules, they become an elite who want to set up oligarchy.
>
>
> Well, that's how democracy has always been. Again, i'm not interested in
> what could have happened, but in what has really happened.
> I call cat a cat. Democracy is an elite ruling over the great majority
> of the
> people.  Not differently from a king, a Democratically elected
> President of
> a Democratic Republic does all is his power to increase the elites' power
> and wealth while cares very little about the lower classes, provided
> that they
> don't cause too many troubles.


Dear Giorgio,

of course, you are free to call everything with the name you like it better.
I am but questioning the common use of the word "democracy".  It seems
to me, the elites in (money) power do unfair play, by calling "democracy"
the substantial aristocracy they manage.  So the people misunderstand the
meaning of tis word, in the sense that they (we) believe to be in control of
every political issue, as how the term "democracy" stands for, while this
control is really a joke.


> > > If i correctly uderstand your words you're picturing out a future
> > > situation where
> > > no oil is available and we all will be forced to use the pushbike.
> > > Such future can't
> > > disturb me, as i like riding my bike. My question: given that we
> > > know that sooner
> > > or later the oil will end, why alternative solutions haven't been
> > > studied and planned?
> > > What power do common people have to decide to switch, for instance,
> > > from oil to
> > > solar?  No power is my answer. They can only hope that oil
> > > companies, fearing the
> > > end of their lucrative business, try to start a new game. Hydrogen
> > > power, for example.
> > > Oil multinationals have been responsible for decades of censorship
> > > and sabotage
> > > against new projects undermining their wealth while promoting oil
> > > consumptions.
> > > SUVdocet. "each gallon of gasoline burned pumps 28 pounds of CO2
> > > into the
> > > atmosphere, the average car emits about 63 tons of CO2 over its
> > > lifetime — and
> > > the average SUV or pickup emits around 82 tons.
> > > In comparison: America’s automobiles produce more global warming
> > > pollution
> > > than all the vehicles, power plants, and factories in Great Britain
> > > combined."
> > > http://www.sierraclub.org/globalwarming/factsheets/BiggestStep_05.pdf
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Giorgio
> > Ok., but the overall structure remains a fractal, and there are
> > different levels
> > of solution, and any one is due to solve the problem at one's own level.
> > Of course, we common pedestrians cannot study and plan and impose a
> > solution at the "Seven Sisters" logical level.  But each one of us
> > can adopt
> > a solution at one's own level: in this case,  more bicycle and less
> > cars.
> > BTW, are you following the discussion at the worldcit(at)googlegroups.com
> > mailing list?
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > antonio
>
> The possible solutions you are talking about have to fight against the
> ruling
> culture that wants smart people own a fast, powerful, big car.  As
> long as
> people keep receiving thousands of messages a day with this exact same
> meaning,  i think your proposal more bicycles and less cars will never
> been
> considered.

Of course.

> That's what communication is for: trying to convince people. The
> elites are
> immensely more communicative that we are, and this is the real problem.
> We don't have access to the media, they own them: they democratically
> bought them. We could have done it, but we didn't.  Our fault, no?
Yes, but you surely know the old Latin ditto:

    "Errare umanum est; perseverare diabolicum"

(into English: "To err is human; to keep steadily on doing it is
diabolical")

I question whether the fault is recoverable, and -- affirmatively -- how.
This is why I am discussing democracy



> Regards
>
> Giorgio
>
> PS I've never visited that site, but you've given me a good hint
Ciao,

antonio