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Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy
Posted by: BrEggum (IP Logged)
Date: August 11, 2007 08:38PM

Dear Mirek, and Wddm,


I am very glad you posted this Mirek. It is quite impossible to dispute someones view if they do not post it. This is a key matter in Cyber world, it must be posted to be known.


I certainly do not want this to appear as if I want you Mirek out of WDDM, we are simply having an argument (politically correct “discussion”) However we cannot continue until we decide if we are a democratic organization or an anarchist organization. Anarchists are by their beliefs independent and although they may meet in groups rallying over a particular issue, they have a record of not being able to achieve unified decisions and carry those decisions out. If a decision to build a firehouse is made and the building begun, anarchism allows a new vote and the construction stopped. This violates basic contractual morality and law.


Does Anarchy accept the “Common Law”? If not is theft, murder, fraud etc. legal?


I find anarchism conflicts with development of any community, even an anarchist community.


Mirek: 1. we should really make clear what we understand under the term Direct
Democracy. I for one always meant under this term all what is listed in the
inset below. And I had this in mind what I accepted to task of the webmaster to
help revive WDDM some two years ago.


BE. Did the WDDM group ask you to do this? Were you a member of WDDM? Did you read and sign the agreement to join WDDM and agree to the principles of WDDM? Did the members vote to allow you to become a member of WDDM or did Antonio who is obviously an anarchist, and fought the development of infrastructure in WDDM install you solely on his own? A hint should have been World-
Wide Direct DEMCRACY Movement, not World-Wide Direct Anarchy Movement
3.An application for membership shall be posted by the Secretary for 2 weeks for discussion. If none of the members oppose the application for membership, then the applicant shall be automatically adopted to be a member of WDDM.
WDDM had a Coordinating Committee from the start, (Centralization) democratic, not anarchy.
WDDM in it's founding documents states:
2.3 We the Founding Members, established a Coordinating Committee (CC) consisting of 12 persons. Based on democratic principles, the role of the CC is to lead the WDD Movement by overwhelming majority vote. The Membership of the CC remains permanent until the size of our membership will permit the rotation of its members.
1. Each issue must be presented and considered independently and its best alternative be selected strictly on its own merit.
1.5 Peoples Initiatives, backed by sufficient number of signatures, should mandate a binding Referendum and/or recall of unworthy representatives (I&R+R) decided by public vote.
Note also the emphasis on I&R+R.
The whole Coordinating Committee came to a screeching halt as Antonio charged it was not following Antonio's views of how it should be. (anarchist) The conflict has continued to this day. The Anarchists in WDDM can not agree even amongst themselves and refuse to compromise. This was the long rant on infrastructure. Democrats wanted one, anarchists did not.
Mirik you apparently are against “Centralization”. Thus the concept of a coordinating committee, and infrastructure seems to flounder in present WDDM.
A major difficulty was Antonio's refusal to develop an infrastructure to initiate, discuss and decide issues. This should be a community decision. However after destroying the WDDM process, no other was allowed to develop.
Mirek you have done much to get an election system up and running. Grateful for that! Now we need to continue the Official Forum and have require all Initiatives and other business shall be done only in Forum so the issue may be easily found and commented upon. If another process is eventually decided upon in referendum, than that system would be the official process. All matters of that Initiative are than in one place. This is Democracy with Initiative and Binding Referendum, not Anarchy,
When Mirek came on, apparently charged to “do something” he did well. However the WDDM community was not involved. So it is up to the WDDM community to take back it's power and decide where to go from here.
Democracy or Anarchism. They defy each other so which one is the question.
Interestingly, Antonio fought Aki Orr's Autonarchy which holds a key in democratizing anarchism. It is a very good infrastructure. Further development of discussion process by the people is needed in Autonarchy however. The people could build from scratch, however a basic plan would help Autonarchy. [www.abolish-power.org]
This is Miriks letter, I comment within:


Dear all,
This is a copy of my post at the WDDM Forum,
[www.world-wide-democracy.net] .
I encourage you to place any possible replies directly in the Forum (however,
if something relevant comes here, I'll copy it into the Forum):


Mirek, many are not yet using Forum so I reply directly.


On July 28, 2007 I attended the Grassroots Social Awareness Festival (organized
by Popular Participation Movement, [www.ppmnanaimo.com]. Many interesting
local organizations participated. Several were calling for increased
participation of citizens in decision making about various local issues
(airport expansion, waterfront development). There was also an anarchist
(anarcho-syndicalist) stand where I picked up various literature. What caught
my eye first was the text titled "WHAT IS ANARCHISM?". It is quoted in the
quote below. You can also find it in on the Nanaimo Anarchist Network site at
[www.geocities.com]. (While you are there, I also
recommend to read WHY DO WE NEED ANARCHISM? at
[www.geocities.com] - it's about what to do to improve
society, something we seem to have hard time here to arrive at).


Bruce> “Why do we need Anarchism “not available - vcmtalk I haven't started building my site.
Only points of anarchism. First point defies any community.

Decentralization. Centralization of political and economic power leads to abuse and corruption. Political and the economic structures should be human-scale.


We are dealing with the WORLD and it is huge. Save me a seat if you have a meeting of the world.


Mirek: There was some posts against anarchism in our mailing lists rather recently. I
am posting this here because for me the points listed below do constitute
exactly what I believe is the Democracy (ideal of Democracy or True Democracy
or Direct Democracy). So apparently I am also an anarcho-syndicalist. Note that
the Anarchists also have Direct Democracy only as one constituent point in what
makes a good society, that is what we called I&R here.


Bruce> – Please show me anarchist DD.


From Wikipedia:



Anarcho-syndicalism is a branch of anarchism which focuses on the labour movement.[1] Syndicalisme is a French word meaning "trade unionism" – hence, the "syndicalism" qualification. Anarcho-syndicalists view labour unions as a potential force for revolutionary social change, replacing capitalism and the State with a new society democratically self-managed by workers. Anarcho-syndicalists seek to abolish the wage system[2] and state or private ownership of the means of production, which they believe lead to class divisions. Anarcho-syndicalism remains a popular and active school of Anarchism today and has many supporters as well as many currently active organizations. Many contemporary anarchists argue that Anarcho-Syndicalism is more of an anarchist workplace organizational structure than an economic system in and of itself. Anarcho-syndicalist trade unionists differ on anarchist economic arrangements from a Collectivist anarchism type economic system to an Anarcho-Communism type economic system. [3] Historically most anarcho-syndicalists were/are also anarcho-communists (such as Lucy Parsons) or anarcho-collectivists (such as Buenaventura Durruti) but there have been many anarcho-syndicalists who preferred mutualist-type economic arrangements such as Joseph Labadie and Joe Hill.
Please recall the battles, killings and manipulations of our grand Unions. They need infrastructure also. Sure the people can, should run Unions, however there are always people seeking to “lead” and be powerful. The requirement is to make an infrastructure which allows people power but not allowing individual power.


We need an infrastructure which allows the people to initiate, discuss and decide in Unions and all groups. This must be a democratic process. Capitalism and all the ism's are not necessary in a democracy. These “ism's” were accepted by the people and these ism's can be given the boot by the people. IF they have Initiative and Binding Referendum. Also, the people even need to be regulated (by themselves) to maintain democracy, and infrastructure which follows the Human Rights criteria etc.


Mirek continues:>


Thus


2. It would be interested to know what others think of the list below. How many
do agree that all these points are necessary for a functioning democracy. I
suggest that you post your thoughts on this in replies to this post.


3. Do you still have any objections to anarchism?
Bruce:> YES


WHAT IS ANARCHISM?


It does NOT stand for chaos, violence, bomb-throwing or disorder. What it does
stand for is:


* Decentralization - Centralization of political and economic power
leads to abuse and corruption. Political and the economic structures should be
human-scale.
Bruce> to have community, we must have a group and that group has power. By joining a group, community we are part of that group. If that group decides democratically to pave the main street, everyone in the group pays for it, even those who vote against it. That is centralization of power. We must have centralization of power, it is how we restrict and manage that power which is important.
* Liberty – each person should be free to do what they wish
providing they do no harm to other people.
Bruce:> Fine ideology, does not work in community where there must be compromises as in any relationship. We have laws and ordinances decided democratically by community. Obviously there will be direct opposite opinions in many decisions. But those who have joined have agreed to follow the democratic decisions of the group.
* Self-management - Each person should have control over those
situations that effect him/her, in both the work place and the community.
Bruce:> Control? One person doing their thing? If painting a house occupied by four people, each wants a different color, wat rainbow? One persons control is dictatorship in a community.
* Federation – decentralized groups, whether communities or work
places unite in a federation to create an "economy of scale" without creating
an authoritarian, top-down structure.
Bruce:> Certainly the people can make an infrastructure which allows all their input, their Initiatives, their vote. The people could develop an infrastructure with no president, prime minister (King). No “Top.” A democratic community decision may not agree with all individuals “vote”. But there must be a decision. You can not decide to build a road and not build that road at the same time. Thus a democratic decision is taken.
* Autonomy – each group or community should have the right to
control those aspects which effect it.
Bruce:> Certainly, and just how will Anarchists make decisions? Democratically? But they don't want centralization which is necessary to democratically hold an election.
* Direct Democracy – Decisions ought to be taken directly by the
people effected. Where decisions must be made at a larger scale, such as with a
federation, recallable delegates are selected.
Bruce:> Oh? Now you have representatives, named delegates. What if you did not personally choose those Representatives? Do you follow their decisions? What if you disagree with their decisions?
Sounds like you need I&BR as well as democracy.


Bruce:> All those below are general ideological aims, shared by many people and democracies:
* Localism – It is best for the environment that as much as
possible of our needs are met locally.
* Regionalism – We live in a place and that place is a region. Each
region has its own history, environment and culture and these are the basis of
community.
* Community – A lack of community brings social breakdown. We must
work to restore community.
* Internationalism – Nothing exists in isolation, and in truth "an
injury to one, is an injury to all" The destruction of a community abroad helps
to undermine community locally. The repression of workers overseas, leads to
the oppression of workers here.


In this context it may be appropriate to place one more link, a link to a quote
from the lecture by Andre Carrel titled "Democracy: Back to Basics" at
[canadianvoices.org]. There you will find:
"Democracy’s premises are equality and responsibility. These simple
propositions have yet to be achieved after centuries marked by wars and
revolutions fought in the name of democratic ideals."


Bruce:> This site is nice. It seems to overlook the fact that some growth has been made since the Greek “democracy”. The reason that more has not been done is most likely the lack of involvement by people to instigate change. The changes need to be made democratically within the system. That is our responsibility. If our democracies had Initiative and Binding Referendum, the people could legislate what they chose by referendum.



Mirik:>
Democracy = equality and responsibility seems to be very compatible with
the list above. And having this in mind you can see why I was so strongly
questioning (opposing) the admission to WDDM of somebody who calls 'True
Democracy' a system based on unequal classes of citizens. (While this may be a
workable idea for a transitional system for some jurisdictions to give some
voice to classes of citizens who do not have any voice at all at present, I am
strongly against calling such a system a democracy, and even add the qualifier
'true'. Again, we should made our mind on what we want to be: a group promoting
the ideal of Democracy, or an unfocused discussion club.


Bruce:>
There is an unfocused discussion which is quite fruitful at CICDD Yahoo groups. A very worthwhile read. I suggest all WDDM members who want a “discussion club” join CICDD and resign WDDM. The rest of us will try to make a go of WDDM, arguing all the way. Eh eh eh eh


Bruce

Bruce Eggum Wisconsin USA
www.doinggovernment.com


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Subject Views Written By Posted
  Anarchism and Direct Democracy 5283 MiKolar 08/11/2007 10:47AM
  Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 488 BrEggum 08/11/2007 08:38PM
  Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 385 MiKolar 08/13/2007 09:31AM
  Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 431 Warren 08/14/2007 03:14AM
  Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 452 MiKolar 08/21/2007 08:41PM
  From PVR: Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 442 WebMaster 08/14/2007 10:00PM
  Re: From PVR: Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 409 BrEggum 09/20/2007 04:47PM
  From Martin Jackson, Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 419 WebMaster 08/14/2007 10:02PM
  From Antonio Rossin, Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 438 WebMaster 08/14/2007 10:05PM
  From Giorgio Menon, Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 465 WebMaster 08/21/2007 08:55PM
  From echarp, Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 419 WebMaster 08/21/2007 08:58PM
  From Mark Antell, Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 424 WebMaster 08/14/2007 10:08PM
  Re: From Mark Antell, Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 395 BrEggum 08/14/2007 11:58PM
  From Doug Everingham, Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 402 WebMaster 08/14/2007 10:11PM
  Re: From Doug Everingham, Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 441 BrEggum 08/15/2007 04:54AM
  Re: Anarchism and Direct Democracy 426 MiKolar 08/21/2007 08:01PM
  Comments of an anarchist on our dicussion 423 MiKolar 09/04/2007 07:08PM
  Re: Comments of an anarchist on our dicussion 410 Warren 09/06/2007 05:43PM
  Re: Comments of an anarchist on our dicussion 428 BrEggum 09/20/2007 04:04PM


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