Hi everyone
I don´t understand why consensus beteween people is not
possible for ideas and political solutions when it is possible for electing
politicians.
All people are not affected or interested of every
actual political subjects. Those who are affected and mind about
some subject can achieve consensus by arguing, revealing of facts
and
evidences and if necessary refrandums.
If we don´t beleive to people´s capacity to make
consensus then we should accept and continue with present corrupt
democracies.
Good luck
Hamid
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 10:42 AM
To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
Subject: Re: [WDDM] Democracy - Glossary -
Referendum
Dear Doug and WDDM
I missposted my last note. I have always supported
Antonio's Parental Training. But that is not the issue we are discussing.
Doug brings many issues confusing the main issue
which is Referendum.
Others have stated and I fully agree, democracy works with democratic elections and
referendums. The idea of “consensus” is an unreachable ideal. There are to many
different views and cultural principles which people follow to come to a 100%
consensus. Bruce Eggum Gresham Wisconsin,
USA Health Care http://tinyurl.com/ycx9vpz http://usinitiative.com http://vote.org/
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 12:09 AM, < Doug Everingham>
wrote:
Not so, Bruce. The parenting trend I
prefer is 'informed' by personal cooperative experience of how a child can
develop confidence and reasoned autonomy when the child and co-dependent
parents are each heard and encouraged by example to prefer cooperative,
mutually tolerant decision-making by supporting parents and parent-like
authorities.
Each member of the family or othr cultural group can still agree to
disagree and explore alternatives. This 'informed' stance is based on grass
roots relationships (from the bottom up). Referendums can help in
recognizing equality of personal sovereignty, but if relied on alone may
bypass vital issues and be stalled in existing pyramidal
hierarchies, 'top-down' decision-making, indoctrinated from a 'higher'
culturally entrenched authority.
Cultured people assassinate each other when their parenting and related
experiences prefer to emphasize dominance hierarchies, censor dissent – where
referendums may reject concepts like 'the human family' and produce votes like
that which brought Hitler to power. –Doug.
====
On 14/12/2009, at 12:52 AM, Bruce Eggum wrote:
Interesting concept Doug. Informed parenting,
allowing each child a choice, means they will all choose the same,
eliminating the need for disputes in referendum or election. The perfect
consensus would be found using simpol.org cooperative consensus process. By the way, why
do cultured people assassinate each other? Bruce
Eggum
On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 1:12 AM, < Doug Everingham> wrote:
Dear Bruce,
Informed parenting implies for me reallization that mutual respect.
tolerance, consensus and cooperation are consciously fostered and taught
by example, specially in our first 3 years when such social attitudes may
be either dominant or suppressed by extremism and dogmatisms.
These alternative personality trends determine whether we use votes
democratically, shaped from the interdependent grass roots, or
undemocratically, developed from dominant elites down.
Referendums produce undemocratic decisions when the voters are misled
by dominant elites.
The International Simtaneous Policy Organization wwwsimpol.org is one
of many democratizing tracks that is developing cooperative consensus
within existing referendum rules.
–Doug.
====
On 12/12/2009, at 5:25 PM, Bruce Eggum wrote:
Dear Doug, What does informed parenting have to do with determining
the choice [vote] of eligible voters? Certainly antonio's program is
good for parenting and develops the child's ability to make
their own choice.
But it does not determine what the choice is of the voter is. There
are many issues which do not resolve to 100 % agreement. Thus we need
democratic elections. [referendum]
Bruce Eggum
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:15 AM, < Doug Everingham> wrote:
Referendums, like majority votes at
elections, are still imperfect as a consensus development.
In feudalism it's our count that votes; in referendums it's our
votes that count –
in more equitable consensus regimes we need more reliable
safeguards
like the informed parenting and other mature
parent-like reciprocal relationships
fostered by cooperative family growth in our first 3 years of
life, as advocated by Antonio Rossin.
====
On 10/12/2009, at 5:14 PM, Bruce Eggum wrote:
Hi All,
The following is my opinion
for your consideration:
Democracy is rule by the people.
Representative democracy perverted it
even though RD was “called” democracy.
We now refer to “direct democracy” as
the people ruling, having final say.
This is why we need a Glossary to
define terms we use for WDDM community.
We must establish the tools necessary
to conduct a World Referendum so we can have a “democratic
world”.
Now as to Antonio's constant
objections, the people of each community have the power if they
choose to use it and if they have demanded that they have this
power. This power was established in the Magna Carta [IE] The power to petition the
government.
The only power necessary for
democracy, direct democracy, pure democracy or any democraacy is
REFERENDUM.
If the people have the power of
Referendum, they control everything. It they do not have the power
of Referendum, they control nothing. This works in all community's,
town, county, state, national, world. Each must have their own
referendum.
At least that is my opinion.
Sincerely Bruce Bruce Eggum Gresham Wisconsin, USA Health Care http://tinyurl.com/ycx9vpz http://usinitiative.com http://vote.org/
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