RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS

[Hamid Mohseni <esi1mohseni2(at)hotmail.com>]

People can be lazy of different reasons:
-They are satisfied then there is nothing wrong that they are lazy
- They have given up and don´t see any chance to change things easily.
- They are sick.
- They are concentrated on other subjects and don´t have time for some question.
- etc...

One thing is clear that it is very rare that all people in a society are lazy at the same
time. Even if a part of society work for changes in politic, it is more effective than a
few politicians do it. No representant or leader know better or mind more than you yourself about
your desires and targets.

Regards

> From: jimpowell(at)mweb.co.za
> To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:11:55 +0200
> Subject: RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
>
> Please give text of Edmund Burke's speech
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Becker [becketl(at)auburn.edu]
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 6:45 PM
> To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
> Subject: Re: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
>
> Excuse me, but there is STRONG EVIDENCE that randomly selected
> legislatures work very well...and are TRULY representative of the people
> if we mean by that: demographically. All elected representative systems
> have elites that supposedly "represent" the people (please read Edmund
> Burke's indefensible address to his constituents in Bristol, England).
>
> Citizens Assemblies as at least one of the two houses would complement
> the direct, deliberative democratic part of any system.
>
> Ted Becker
>
> >>> "Jiri Polak" <jiri.polak(at)swipnet.se> 1/21/2011 9:20 AM >>>
> Correct. But most people are too lazy and passive to want to constantly
> vote on all issues. It would not be realistic to try to put in place
> such a system. Some form of representation will be indispensable for the
> foreseeable future. However, the representatives will be under constant
> scrutiny and susceptible to be recalled at any moment if guilty of
> misconduct. What we strive for is semi-direct democracy with strong
> elements of deliberation.
> Jiri
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hamid Mohseni
> To: World Direct Democracy
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 3:12 PM
> Subject: RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
>
>
> And what about people who like to manage the job themselves and not
> employ others for that. The experience shows that this politician
> managers has seldom been honest and soon or later has taken over the
> power and used it for their own egoistik matters.
>
> Hamid
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: jimpowell(at)mweb.co.za
> To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:38:12 +0200
> Subject: RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
>
>
> Hi Hamid,
>
>
>
> Having the voters making decisions on all matters is a waste of time.
> The politicians are employed to consider the information and make
> decisions, similar to managers employed by shareholders in a company.
> The voters are the shareholders and the politicians the managers
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Jim Powell South Africa
>
>
>
> From: Hamid Mohseni [esi1mohseni2(at)hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 7:24 PM
> To: World Direct Democracy
> Subject: RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
>
>
>
> The Swiss system is better than many other countries but not good
> enough, because stíll it is politicians and not people who are the
> leaders eventhogh people can stop politicians decisions and propositions
> sometimes.
>
> Hamid
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: jimpowell(at)mweb.co.za
> To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:47:38 +0200
> Subject: RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
>
> I think the Swiss have got it right (mostly)
>
>
>
> Have your politicians investigate and propose new laws. The
> electorate will have access to all the information and can raise a
> referendum if enough of them are unhappy with the legislation. A
> referendum is held and the will of the people is sovereign.
>
>
>
> 97% of legislation in Switzerland goes through without objection. The
> laws that are passed will be created with the knowledge that they can be
> challenged, so they are voter friendly
>
>
>
> Jim Powell South Africa
>
>
>
> From: Hamid Mohseni [esi1mohseni2(at)hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 8:18 PM
> To: World Direct Democracy
> Subject: RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
>
>
>
> As I understand real direct democracy dońt need politicians as
> represents or leaders but advisors and organizers. Their job is to
> inform people about political facts and theories
> and organize refrandums and realise the result of refrandums and
> decisions made by people
> in common political and practical questions.
>
> Regards
> Hamid
>
> > From: jiri.polak(at)swipnet.se
> > To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
> > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:06:18 +0100
> > Subject: Re: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
> >
> > Dear Fred,
> > as far as I see, the model of PD you put forward is compatible with
> my own
> > ideas, which are much more simple and only rudimentary. The PD
> model is
> > certainly worth studying. Íll bring an information about it in the
> next
> > issue of my newsletter.
> > Sincerely, Jiri Polak
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Fred Gohlke" <fredgohlke(at)verizon.net>
> > To: <wddm@world-wide-democracy.net>
> > Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 11:14 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
> >
> >
> > > Good Afternoon, Jiri
> > >
> > > From your January 14th post:
> > >
> > > "The basic fault ... is to call party-based regimes
> 'democracy'".
> > >
> > > From your January 16th post:
> > >
> > > "But I - and many others - also want a system where elected
> > > representatives get continuous feedback from their voters who
> > > can recall them at any moment (not only during elecions) if
> > > the majority within the respective constituency demand it."
> > >
> > > Have you thought about the way Practical Democracy functions? It
>
> > > addresses and resolves both the points you make; the first
> because it
> > > sidesteps political parties and the second because it is
> inherently
> > > bi-directional.
> > >
> > > Political Parties
> > > -----------------
> > > Over two hundred years experience with party politics informs us
> that,
> > > when politics is based on partisanship, the partisans form
> oligarchic
> > > power blocs that become an end in themselves and ultimately
> transcend the
> > > will of the people.
> > >
> > > Partisanship is a potent tool for those with a thirst for power
> but it
> > > does not foster government by the people. It results in
> government by a
> > > small fraction of the people. For the people as a whole, the
> flaws in
> > > party politics are devastating. Their cumulative effect
> victimizes the
> > > public by the most basic and effective strategy of domination ---
> divide
> > > and conquer.
> > >
> > > Parties are important for the principals: the party leaders,
> > > contributors, candidates and elected officials, but the
> significance
> > > diminishes rapidly as the distance from the center of power
> grows. Most
> > > people are on the periphery, remote from the centers of power. As
>
> > > outsiders, they have little incentive to participate in the
> political
> > > process.
> > >
> > > The challenge of representative democracy is not to divide the
> public into
> > > blocs but to find the best advocates of the common interest and
> raise them
> > > to leadership positions as the people's representatives.
> > >
> > > To meet that challenge, given the range of public issues and the
> way each
> > > individual's interest in political matters varies over time, an
> effective
> > > electoral process must examine the entire electorate during each
> election
> > > cycle, seeking the people's best advocates. It must let every
> voter
> > > influence the outcome of each election to the best of their
> desire and
> > > ability, and it must ensure that those selected as
> representatives are
> > > disposed to serve the public interest.
> > >
> > > Practical Democracy allows voters to quickly and easily align
> themselves
> > > with others who share their views. It changes the focus of
> advocates of a
> > > partisan position from getting votes for a politician to
> persuading voters
> > > of the value of the idea they espouse. It lets every faction
> select, from
> > > among themselves, the best champions of their point of view and
> raise them
> > > as far as the size of the group allows.
> > >
> > > One huge flaw in the party-based systems that dominate the globe
> is that
> > > individuals must support one of the existing parties or be denied
> a voice
> > > in the political process. They have no way to prevent the
> excesses of the
> > > parties.
> > >
> > > Practical Democracy gives unaligned people a voice. Those who
> advocate
> > > partisan interests must ultimately present their point of view to
> voters
> > > who may not share their view. This provides unaligned people with
> a
> > > countervailing force that prevents domination by any party.
> > >
> > > PD allows, indeed encourages, enclaves to easily form and attract
>
> > > adherents. As Jane Mansbridge said in The Deliberative System
> > > Disaggregated, "Enclaves are good at generating new ideas.
> Everyday talk
> > > is good at applying ideas and selecting those best applicable to
> common
> > > experience." That is how fresh ideas are introduced into society,
> but
> > > they cannot impose their will unless they are able to persuade
> the
> > > unaligned of the value of their ideas. PD guarantees that fresh
> ideas
> > > will be accommodated to the extent they are deemed worthy by the
>
> > > electorate.
> > >
> > > Bi-directionality
> > > -----------------
> > > Practical Democracy is inherently bi-directional. Because each
> advancing
> > > participant and elected official sits atop a pyramid of known
> electors,
> > > questions on specific issues can easily be transmitted directly
> to and
> > > from the electors for the guidance or instruction of the
> official. This
> > > capability offers those who implement the process a broad scope,
> ranging
> > > from simple polling of constituents to referenda on selected
> issues and
> > > recall of an elected representative.
> > >
> > > If you are interested in these concepts, the process is described
> in
> > > Paricipedia at:
> > >
> > > http://participedia.net/wiki/Practical_Democracy
> > >
> > >
> > > I wonder if you'll find value in it.
> > >
> > > Fred Gohlke
> >
>