Bruce,
please remind which "WDDM community" and which "2005 decision"
you are speaking of.
Please remember, this is the WDDM discussion list,
un-moderated,
open to any discussion topic which any one of this list contributors
may think it is of a common, democratic relevance.
If you think of one's posted topic that it is of no democratic
relevance,
please do not push your reply button to it, that will be enough to make
it get its natural end, methinks.
So, let please our WDDM discussion be free and stop bothering its
discussants by claiming your "2005 decisions" that have been decided
somewhere else by your claimed WDDM community which is not this
esteemed WDDM discussion list.
Thanks, best regards,
antonio
Bruce Eggum wrote:
I remind you this is only for WDDM
We are not making decisions for other community's -
organizations.
The WDDM community made it's decision in 2005.
bruce
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:06 PM, Doug
Everingham <dnevrghm(at)powerup.com.au>
wrote:
Dear Bruce,
I think in this discussion we are slowly approaching consensus
by exehanging and considring with mutual respect our differences and
agreements.
I agree that 100% consensus is never, or nearly never,
reachable, whether by discussion, majority vote and/or referendums.Yet I see this unattainable goal as
always, or nearly always, the outcome sought by mutually accepted
discussion and voting, including referendums.–Doug.
====
On 14/12/2009, at 7:42 PM, Bruce Eggum wrote:
Dear Doug and WDDM
I missposted my last note. I have
always supported Antonio's Parental Training. But that is not the issue
we are discussing.
Doug brings many issues confusing
the main issue which is Referendum.
Others have stated and I fully
agree, democracy works with
democratic elections and referendums. The idea of “consensus” is an
unreachable ideal. There are to many different views and cultural
principles which people follow to come to a 100% consensus.
Bruce Eggum
Gresham Wisconsin, USA
Health Care http://tinyurl.com/ycx9vpz
http://usinitiative.com
http://vote.org/
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Doug
Everingham <dnevrghm(at)powerup.com.au>
wrote:
Not so, Bruce. The parenting trend I prefer is
'informed' by personal cooperative experience of how a child can
develop confidence and reasoned autonomy when the child and
co-dependent parents are each heard and encouraged by example to prefer
cooperative, mutually tolerant decision-making by supporting parents
and parent-like authorities.
Each member of the family or othr cultural group can
still agree to disagree and explore alternatives. This 'informed'
stance is based on grass roots relationships (from the bottom up).
Referendums can help in recognizing equality of personal sovereignty,
but if relied on alone may bypass vital issues and be stalled in
existing pyramidal hierarchies, 'top-down' decision-making,
indoctrinated from a 'higher' culturally entrenched authority.
Cultured people assassinate each other when their
parenting and related experiences prefer to emphasize dominance
hierarchies, censor dissent – where referendums may reject concepts
like 'the human family' and produce votes like that which brought
Hitler to power. –Doug.
====
On 14/12/2009, at 12:52 AM, Bruce Eggum wrote:
Interesting concept Doug. Informed
parenting, allowing each child a choice, means they will all choose the
same, eliminating the need for disputes in referendum or election. The
perfect consensus would be found using simpol.org cooperative
consensus process. By the way, why do cultured people assassinate each
other?
Bruce Eggum
On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 1:12 AM, < Doug Everingham>
wrote:
Dear Bruce,
Informed parenting implies for me reallization that
mutual respect. tolerance, consensus and cooperation are consciously
fostered and taught by example, specially in our first 3 years when
such social attitudes may be either dominant or suppressed by extremism
and dogmatisms.
These alternative personality trends determine whether
we use votes democratically, shaped from the interdependent grass
roots, or undemocratically, developed from dominant elites down.
Referendums produce undemocratic decisions when the
voters are misled by dominant elites.
The International Simtaneous Policy Organization www.simpol.org
is one of many democratizing tracks that is developing cooperative
consensus within existing referendum rules.
–Doug.
====
On 12/12/2009, at 5:25 PM, Bruce Eggum wrote:
Dear Doug, What does informed parenting have to do
with determining the choice [vote] of eligible voters? Certainly
antonio's program is good for parenting and develops
the child's ability to make their own choice.
But it does not determine what the choice is of the
voter is. There are many issues which do not resolve to 100 %
agreement. Thus we need democratic elections. [referendum]
Bruce Eggum
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:15
AM, Doug Everingham <dnevrghm(at)powerup.com.au>
wrote:
Referendums, like majority votes at
elections, are still imperfect as a consensus development.
In feudalism it's our count that votes; in
referendums it's our votes that count –
in more equitable consensus regimes we need more
reliable safeguards
like the informed parenting and
other mature parent-like reciprocal relationships
fostered by cooperative family growth in our first
3 years of life, as advocated by Antonio Rossin.
====
On 10/12/2009, at 5:14 PM, Bruce Eggum wrote:
Hi All,
The following is my opinion for your consideration:
Democracy is rule by
the people.
Representative
democracy perverted it even though RD was “called” democracy.
We now refer to
“direct democracy” as the people ruling, having final say.
This is why we need a
Glossary to define terms we use for WDDM community.
We must establish the
tools necessary to conduct a World Referendum so we can have a
“democratic world”.
Now as to Antonio's
constant objections, the people of each community have the power if
they choose to use it and if they have demanded that they have this
power. This power was established in the Magna Carta [IE] The power to petition the government.
The only power
necessary for democracy, direct democracy, pure democracy or any
democraacy is REFERENDUM.
If the people have the
power of Referendum, they control everything. It they do not have the
power of Referendum, they control nothing. This works in all
community's, town, county, state, national, world. Each must have their
own referendum.
At least that is my
opinion.
Sincerely Bruce
Bruce Eggum
Gresham Wisconsin, USA
Health Care http://tinyurl.com/ycx9vpz
http://usinitiative.com
http://vote.org/
Antonio Rossin.
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