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02354: Re: [WDDM] Weighted voting

From: Lata Gouveia <latalondon(at)yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 04:29:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [WDDM] Weighted voting

Thank you Antonio,
So I'm not crazy? Great!

I always suspected that was the case but for the last 8 weeks I've been running Citizen Mundi and the data I've ben collecting confirms that is the case even among relative intellectual elites. If you have a minute, come and visit us at:

https://citizenmundi.wordpress.com/

Thanks again,
Lata


From: Antonio Rossin <rossin(at)tin.it>
To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
Sent: Friday, 9 October, 2009 8:35:56
Subject: Re: [WDDM] Weighted voting

Lata,

I totally agree with you: (the utmost democratic
majority of) people are not fit to govern themselves.

Very simply, average people do not want to take any
political responsibility upon themselves, so they manage
to depend on others (i.e., Representatives) for this basic
requirement of Democracy.

Now the problem becomes, analyzing why when and how
such a dependent trait has been embedded into people's
relational brain.

I mean, once this imprinting mechanism had been exposed,
its reversal could be all what today's Democracy needs of.


Regards,

antonio





Lata Gouveia ha scritto:
Thank you Joseph,
I've just read your response.

Whilst I agree with most of it, I am not so confident that the "one person/one vote" mantra is necessarily fair or sensible.
Moreover, from the point of view of a long term strategy to push for more direct types of democracy, it is the biggest thorn on our side. Equal opportunity, yes, but whilst demanding individual responsibility.

Let me put it this way. If you talk to any politician, any business leader, any political analyst, anyone in positions of responsibility about Direct Democracy, a very high percentage of those people will laugh in your face. "It would never work!!" they would say. Why? "Because people are too dumb to govern themselves and you must be incredibly naive to think otherwise"

The main reason for the preservation of Guardianship and representative systems is, above all others, the notion that people are not fit to govern themselves.

Let me give you an example. Ireland has just approved the Lisbon Treaty. Many people believe the Irish people were blackmailed, intimidated or brainwashed. Others say that they were informed, as opposed to a year ago, when they rejected the Treaty.

Let me ask you this, would it really be so unfair to ask people to fill in the following questionnaire and shouldn't people have a responsibility to do certain basic research before demanding that the powers that be step down and hand everything over?

1)
The treaty of Lisbon is:
- A) document that concerns the Republic of Ireland exclusively.
- B) A document that primarily concerns the European Union.
- C) A document that primarily concerns the trade relationship between Ireland and Portugal.

2)
The two main decision-making institutions within the EU are:
- A) The Council and the Commission
- B) The Parliament and the Commission
- C) The Parliament and the Council.

etc.

Can anyone tell me with a straight face that a person who does not know these basic things is just as fit as someone who does to make a binding and irreversible decision for their country and for the future of the entire premise of geopolitics?

I guess this is my dilemma. I am a supporter of democracy, I criticise democratic deficits wherever I see them and I believe that the next evolutionary step for Mankind is, somehow, related to the improvement of democracy. However, if I had to make a choice between giving the British people a referendum on, say, the Euro, or giving a handful of people at the top the decision, I would have to go with the second option... simply because I don't trust the British people to know anything that's not been fed to them by Rupert Murdock.

Bring in the multiple choice test and the weighted vote and I would totally support the referendum instead.

Simple.
Lata




From: Joseph Hammer <parrhesiajoe(at)gmail.com>
To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
Sent: Thursday, 8 October, 2009 10:26:37
Subject: Re: [WDDM] Weighted voting

I would tend to agree with Hamid and Jim.

The American Medical Association is a great case study for this issue. They have more knowledge about the medical industry than the average individual, but that is not necessarily a good thing. It would be good if the motivation of the actors was the unbiased betterment of mankind. This is folly. No person can recognize the extent of his or her own bias. History tends to exonerate the idea that any group who possesses superior knowledge will use the information asymmetry to enrich themselves rather than society in general.

I strongly believe in the "one person, one vote" principal. If forced to compare the relative effects of ignorance and power consolodation, it might be a toss up. However, we will have ignorance through bias in any category of man. What is in our power to prevent is the consolodation of power. Wise kings start wars... uneducated peasants seldom think it worth the cost in blood.

In most decisions of governance, it is ethical principals rather than specific knowledge that should drive our legislation.

Plus, most people with "education" in a field will claim the ability to make better decisions. This education is market driven, and not motivated by truth unless the market rewards accurate, unbiased information.

Take economics, for example. The biggest employer of economists is the Federal Reserve. Like the alchemists of old, these rascally intellectuals buy into a completely fictitious notion... that you can create money from thin air... or out of lead, as the alchemists believed. In the heyday of alchemy, many scholarly types insisted that the layman, who doubted the wisdom of the alchemists, was unrefined and uneducated. A college cannot attract many students to a class that says, "Alchemy is bullshit" or "The best monetary policy is non-intervention by the state" or "None of these sophisticated economic models that we teach you have ever actually worked". All of these notions would kill the entire fields of curriculum.

Plus, over a three-year period ending in October 1994, the Fed awarded 305 contracts to 209 professors worth a total of $3 million. Wow... that's about 15k per professor.

Plus, to get tenure, you must publish. One critical way the Fed exerts control on academic economists is through its relationships with the field's gatekeepers. For instance, at the Journal of Monetary Economics, a must-publish venue for rising economists, more than half of the editorial board members are currently on the Fed payroll -- and the rest have been in the past.

"Knowledge" is easily perverted by self interest. The assumption that individual scholar can make better decisions is wholly dependent on the subject of inquiry and the incentives to mislead.

If the subject of inquiry is highly technical, then I agree with Hamid. It is in the best interest of society to hire one or more researchers to investigate the topic. There are many ways to make this work well, but there are far more ways to screw it up... like letting representatives choose the investigators (unless we structure incentives to reward politicians for effective, honest choices... a far cry from the current situation).

We need the knowledge, but we need to guard against interested dogma, and letting intellectuals have more say is, like Jim said, manipulable.

Parrhesia

- Vanity is hemlock to those who seek truth. Be careful what you consume.


On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 7:12 PM, <Lata Gouveia> wrote:
Hi all,

Do you agree that people who have more knowledge about a topic should have more say in a decision about that topic?

Lata
http://citizenmundi.wordpress.com/raw-initiatives/






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