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02302: Re: [WDDM] Lata's Recent Comments

From: Lata Gouveia <latalondon(at)yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 20:38:04 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: [WDDM] Lata's Recent Comments

Dear Fred,

Your assertion
"The notion that 'the people' can meet in assembly and conduct our government is flawed"
vs
My assertion
The notion that we can find an elite of persons of flawless integrity to conduct our government is flawed too. So is the notion we should not be involved.

Every time someone confronts what they perceive to be an inconsistency in your argument, you have been resorting to labelling them as "infantile", "immature", "unhealthy" and "ridiculous".

I must say I don't understand this emotional defensiveness. You say " If you wish to refute an assertion, propound a better one.", but you have failed to do so yourself.

This is a forum about Direct Democracy and you are an advocate for Guardianship, which is fine. But expect to find some resistance to your ideas.

People who care about democracy enjoy listening to other points of view, often we are hoping to hear something that might help us re-assess or gain a deeper understanding. Words like "infantile" and "immature" are a personal attack, not a constructive criticism. You are not talking to a bunch of kids. People who take the trouble to come on here are serious about the issues they discuss. It should not be personal.

Lata Gouveia



From: Fred Gohlke <fredgohlke(at)verizon.net>
To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
Sent: Wednesday, 16 September, 2009 17:09:38
Subject: Re: [WDDM] Lata's Recent Comments

Good Morning, Bruce

The notion that 'the people' can meet in assembly and conduct our government is flawed.  The people, taken as a group, are easily manipulated ... as was shown when the majority of Americans were persuaded that Saddam Hussein had Weapons of Mass Destruction and was a threat to our country.

This is but the most outrageous example of our susceptibility to the deceit that permeates our society.  We are inundated with examples of it, daily, from the outrages perpetrated by the financiers (and underwritten at the people's expense by their government) to the pharmaceutical company that implements its government-ordered retraction of its false and misleading advertising with ads that are even more deceptive than those they were ordered to disavow.

Although there are, among us, people who are not susceptible to this onslaught of hyperbole and deceit, they are in the minority. We need their thoughtful guidance.


re: "We can make these decisions as an Assembly and than command
    our 'elected representatives' to carry out our commands."

Perhaps you have an infantile need to control.  I don't.  While you focus on 'command', my thoughts are on gaining consensus.


re: "... You want us to do the representatives bidding. Back to
    the King and his men commanding the slaves."

This is a foolish and unwarranted misstatement of my suggestion.  If you wish to cite my objectives, please do so accurately.


Your suggestion that I delete one of my statements is improper.  It is, however, an excellent example of why your attitude is immature and unhealthy.  If you wish to refute an assertion, propound a better one.

My preference is that we discontinue this exchange.  Our views are so discordant, reconciling them is unlikely.

Fred Gohlke


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