Again, I like what David is saying, But we have to be carefull about the use of words.
I remember some of my friends saying that they had absolutely no interest in politics whilst bickering all the time about who paid for the beer, who ate all the cake, etc, That IS politics.
You say that we don't need a government but instead just need to solve problems "such as how to feed the
community, how to provide adequate water..." etc. Well, that's government, which is simply social management. From the moment you organise, allocate, implement, you govern. So, I'm afraid that killing the word will not solve the problem. Later on we'll be saying that the problem is Social management, why do we need it? It's not that we chose that there should be a government, government is inevitable as soon as you have a society, whether it's a fascist dictatorship, a hippie commune, a co-operative or one of our ironically named democracies. No, I don't think we can brush government under the carpet... the word yes, but not the actual fact of life that it is.
Also, JFK was as far from being on the left side of the political spectrum as Obama is, probably much further to the right still.
In my opinion, the form of government, the structure of a society (its laws, its citizens' roles, rights and obligations, the decision-making
process of society) is what we have all been debating. In short, a Constitution. When our friend put forward that proposal that split people into 9 classes, etc, THAT WAS a basic form of Constitutional proposal.
At the end of the day, what is it that most of the thinkers here have a problem with? Let's be blunt: We have a problem with politicians making decisions for us in these supposed "democracies", we have a problem with being "represented" by somebody who does not know us, does not care, somebody who has their own agenda and career to worry about and a society which does not think we are smart enough or responsible enough to grasp the skills of government. For me, that's what hurts the most, it's that I would not trust my neighbours to replace the politicians because, frankly they are even more ignorant and would do a worse job.
The problem comes down to representation (handing your democratic imput over to a tv celebrity) and
responsibility (making sure that decisions are not made by ill-informed, gut reacting fools). Solution: A Direct Democracy system with a weighted voting system based on knowledge and regularity (participation). If we all took 1 hour per week to read up, be assessed and vote on specific referendums, we would be half way there. That is why an online game or social network would be so perfect!! It doesn't have to shadow any government. The challenge is simply to prove that an alternative form of management is effective. Think about it, you could even create and manage a football club using this method, just to prove the point, before moving onto social management! Oh, how I wish I was a programmer!!
Lata
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, David Parker <davefparker(at)shaw.ca> wrote:
From: David Parker <davefparker(at)shaw.ca> Subject: RE: [WDDM] Why I support World Government? To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net Date: Thursday, 30 July, 2009, 11:58 PM
That is telling. Discussion is great
and arguments are even better, they bring out new ideas. Without being proved
wrong one can never rise to a higher level of understanding.
The myth is that the Governments,
Military and Police all work for us but the truth of the matter is that we work
for them under the threat of taxation, police brutality and prison.
I feel that the problem never gets to
the solution which is how to care for humanity without having an enemy figure to
order us in a hive structure. The debate is always over government. It gives one
the impression that there is some ideal form of government, that being governed
is preferable if we just have the right governors and forms. Which form of
government, how to control the government, checks and balances. Why not do away
with government and put the problems on the table instead.
Problems such as how to feed the
community, how to provide adequate water, how to house the community or relocate
them to a more hospitable area if they would like. How to provide sanitation and
waste disposal. How do we raise the level of fitness and provide adequate
medical care in the event of misfortune. How to provide a solid, fundamental
education to everyone with access to advanced specialized knowledge for those
interested. How do we provide incentive to work and a variety of meaningful
employment opportunities without the military and arms industry which primarily
support the planet at present? Who will clean the toilets and sweeps the halls?
How do we curb this obsession with growth at the expense of life?
Do we really need to be governed?
Don't we just need better management of the available resources and distribution
networks? Can't we just have a few basic rules against lying, cheating,
stealing, abuse, violence and murder? Were any of us consulted on any issues of
import like are we going to fish the oceans until depleted, are we going to feed
off concentration camp style cattle and chicken farms when there is plenty of
healthy food growing in the dirt, are we going to drain every aquifer to make
plastic bottles to put corn syrup sodas in, are we going to log off every
ancient forest on the planet, are we going to burn every gallon of oil before we
switch to electric and new safer nuclear technologies.
We in the west take it for granted
that when we go to the store there will be food. Why aren't we sharing the
wealth more equitably? We can fly our asses to these third worldized nations to
sun at the resort beach but four blocks away people are starving. Why aren't we
staying home and sending food instead? Is it because we can indulge in increased
excesses because our western exploitive dollars has crushed their currency? Are
the sand, rocks, surf, sun or people any different than where we were born? The
only real difference is the local culture, which we call quaint or primitive. It
makes us feel superior to see how much better we have it at home, yes Toby bring
me another drink, damn it's hot here.
I just see so much abuse in the world
for what? So a few rich fuggers can get richer and you don't have to believe in
conspiracies, though plenty do exist, to see that's it simply a matter of
industry wide emulation. The boss at the top gives the orders and everyone else
just stays where they are and does what they're told to do. Why do you work at
the bomb factory? My daddy did and it pays good money. Every aspect of our lives
is under military rule and structure. Shut up and do what you're told, do what's
expected of you: buy the propaganda, buy the beer, join the army, get a job, get
married, have more mewling cabbages and send them off to the same school to do
the same thing.
Is it just me or is the planet
insane? Everyone seems to be waiting for some daddy figure to step in and save
them, or my favorite, they hope the aliens save them. They don't even know there
really is no such thing as an alien even if other life exists, it's part of the
same system we all are. They bought into the same disconnectedness that religion
teaches. Just work like hell here and you will be reincarnated to heaven after
you die. You are better than those fools that believe in "That other
God"
Selling change to people
that already have all the answers will never work. Why try something new,
Armageddon's coming soon anyways. Try and pry control of our biblical UCC
commercial economic system away from those people. They don't even speak the
same language. Oh the words look similar but legalese is not English. We're just persons, human resources to be spent on the
battlefield.
I know I sound a little fatalistic
but after 50 years and following the conspiracy venue for forty of it I don't
see much progress since they decapitated the left in the 60's starting with JFK,
MX, MLK, RFK and the room grew so quiet not a peep in forty years. The odd
murmur here and there but no one is allowed to grow popular enough to influence
"the mob". I started to make a list of political assassinations through history
starting with the Gracchi and Julius Caesar to today. It is disheartening
especially when you read the court historians lauding praise on the executioners
and vilifying the dead. More of that industry wide emulation, publish or perish.
These are our educators.
Everyone is so plagued by fear they
won't even talk about change with me. I can't even get my neighbors to come
together for a BBQ forget about politics. It's going to take starvation to pry
these people off their asses. China and the Hungry Ghost comes to mind. How do
you get people interested when all they care about is that they can get pizza
delivery.
http://members.shaw.ca/davefparker/
http://www.illuminati-news.com/Articles/65.html
Cheers. Dave
-----Original Message----- From: Jim Powell
[autoinfo(at)acenet.co.za] Sent: July 30, 2009 1:02
AM To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net Subject: RE: [WDDM]
Why I support World Government?
Hi
All,
This
suggestion has generated a lot of debate.
1.
We
would need to build up direct democracy from the roots before going to a world
government.
2.
A
World Government currently would just be worse than the EU. At least the USA
has fairly independent states. Switzerland has not joined the EU because of
the top down approach.
3.
I
am building the direct democracy from the community organisations upwards in
South Africa.
4.
Foundation
first then walls then roof
5.
I
am opposed to pigeon holing people. We are in essence adaptable. Decisions on
the community should be made by all the community.
Politicians
are the employees of the voters. Voters decide who gets employed and voters
pay the salaries
Regards
Jim
Powell
From: David Parker
[davefparker(at)shaw.ca] Sent: 29 Jul 2009 09:23
PM To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net Subject: RE: [WDDM]
Why I support World Government?
I liked much of it. I see
some real problems though. I relate some of my concerns below. I don't claim
to call my notes scholarship, I just made them on the fly as I read through. I
hope you don't find them discouraging for they are just my opinions and where
I see inequity.
I'm dubious about the need
for Lawyers. We have more than enough laws around the planet as it is. We need
to do away with legal speak, person, register, human, apply, and all that
crap. We need to scale back on prohibitions, not create a new department to
write more. If their purpose is to deconstruct and dismantle things like
marijuana prohibition, and seat belt fines as well as bring back habeas corpus
good but we certainly don't need any one group dictating what we can and
cannot do. We know from birth that it's wrong to kill our mothers and cheat
our friends; we don't need to be told. Laws could be handled locally or
through extradition. We are all peacemakers. We abdicate far too much
responsibility. Have a few basic laws like no murder, assault, theft, fraud
and slander/lying. Punish with exile to some remote islands for a period of
cooling off/quiet time or do you prefer to maintain the concentration camp
torture chamber gladiator school prisons we have now? Put the lawyers in with
the criminals.
Criminals aren't born,
they're raised. The preprogrammed parents tell lie vision and concentration
camp public education systems with their Pavlovian bells breed selfish, lying
aggressive drones for the current fear based system of control. You need fear
bots to order society on an enemy figure.
I had issue with the 18 year
old division. I feel children should be included from as early an age as
possible. We used to go to work in the mines at 6. Why not start learning at
six by reading and commenting with their own ideas at say
10
Childhood is a stage we need
to get over it and grow up as quickly as possible so we can really begin to
enjoy our life. We tell children all their lives, grow up, get a good
education (comply with the state testing) get a good job (wage slavery with no
complaint) get married, raise more drones, save for retirement, get drunk,
beat your spouse, lie, cheat, steal all these things are good and fun, I saw
them on the news, Oprah, Dr reality, American Idol worship, friends and two
and a half liars. You be the Judge Judy.
On the Cultivators it
wouldn't be hard to produce enough nutrient rich protein type of health bars
with the companies already doing similar and converting coke Pepsi beer makers
into healthy drink distributors all free for the entire planet. Don't make
alcohol illegal just make people produce their own at home like us pot smokers
have to do. Do away with the concentration camp style factory farms where the
first day on the farm for a chicken it has its beak and tongue cut off. You
want to eat meat? Raise and kill it yourself like my family did. I no longer
eat meat and rarely shop at the corporate corners
On the Protective branch I
have concerns. While democratically they may only have 11% physically they
could take 100% against an unarmed citizenry. We all need to be peace makers
in our community. I go back to my submission that all food, clothing, shelter,
utilities and public transportation need to be provided free. Money is still
earned through labor but it is non transferable and used for luxury items like
pleasure craft, holidays, air travel, personal aircraft, skiing and sports
equipment, items along those lines. By not having to scramble for a living you
have time to think, reflect, invent, learn, join in scholarship and help out
humanity when you are ready and willing.
We aren't ants and bees; we
don't need soldiers and queens telling us what's best for us. We need to be
give the proper information is all.
Armies support national
boundaries and nations promote bigotry. I'm proud to be born here and the rest
of you can go to hell is a pretty common theme in our current dystopia.
Society is ordered on us having enemy figures. The state extracts the wealth
of the nation in the form of taxes which it spends on wars against the
manufactured enemy figures like Alien'Qaeda, Al'Qaeda aka the base or the
Taliban aka the students both of which are secret service society creations
wholly owned and operated by them. How can you recommend keeping these
institutions? They are for nothing but death and destruction of the labor of
man, rebuild, raze, and repeat. Did you ever watch Star Trek? The universe run
by the Navy, everyone works for Starfleet and they have several enemy figures.
This is our future if we keep those war pigs around.
I could see all military
turned into construction companies for the rebuilding of the planet until
things are livable then we could move to science drivers such as a real space
program. Not more of those antique shuttles. How about a re-seed the ocean and
rebuild the reefs project and reclaim the deserts by planting more hemp which
is also the tree of life. You do know it's the only plant that has separate
male and female sex, is the second strongest natural fiber, just try to get
spiders to weave you a pair of pants. It's one of the highest proteins and
complete nutrient rich food sources and makes the problems of the planet
easier to see. It produces 4.1 times as much fiber for paper as an acre of
trees and can be harvested at least once a year if not more instead of every 7
to 20 years. It makes twice as much ethanol from cellulose as corn. Currently
Canadian hemp growers are getting $300.00 an acre compared to American corn
farmers getting $30.00
I'm not certain but it would
seem that your model is based on the premise of economic growth if I read the
bankster elite section correctly. They are to go on creating money out of thin
air and charging us interest on it thus ensuring a lifetime of debt slavery
for future generations. Every dollar created has interest attached which is
never created so must be stolen from some other debt slave because every
dollar created is due back at the bank. This ensures an underworld crime
community which you never took into account. The second biggest business on
the planet is the illegal drug trade, second only to the arms
industry.
By keeping money, greed and
wealth accumulation in the equation you condemn the cycle to continue.
“Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the
earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits,
and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back
again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes disappear,
and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to
live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of
your own slavery, let them continue to create money and control credit."
credited to Josiah Stamp
I say do away with the elite
section and let them scramble for a living with the rest of us. Give their
section to the criminals, drug dealers, disenfranchised and unemployed and
just plain lazy. With no money to be traded and made they will need something
to do
The employment section is
presented as the right to earn a living but what it actually seems to say to
me is "earn the right to live" or get a note from your doctor. We will
continue to be born into wage slavery, raised to be a specialist, with no
broad knowledge of how the world works, as decided by the educators that
watched and assessed you. The supposition is that the educators are
benevolent, infallible god beings that never make mistakes in the future of
children.
To think that because the
protective group won't kill each other is one thing but there are eight other
gangs to conquer. This sounds a little like Frank Herbert's Dune Dystopia. He
who controls the spice controls the universe.
You still have us under
parliament rule, House of Monarchs, House of Lords and the commons. Talk about
being spit on. Yes your majesty, your lordship I am but a common man with
nothing near your education or station in life. I know my place in your caste
system.
This brings me to a point on
citizen. To be a citizen, to parrot the state dogma. Global citizens like
Rockerchild and others put out in the media for us to stand in awe of all
proclaim themselves to be global citizens; it's a joke of course. It means
they will travel anywhere they choose, take anything they like and kill anyone
they want.
Gold is not really a resource
we should care about. 158,000 tons mined if you do the math is only worth
about 10 to 15 trillion dollars and half of it is in jewelry. The planets GNP
are around 70 trillion. Gold and the gold standard are just shiny
distractions, illusions, ways to keep people thinking that money is a good
thing, look how it glitters. If the love of money is the root of all evil then
the people that control and print the money, aka our state central Banksters,
are the worst form of evil for they keep perpetuating this psychosis of wealth
accumulation on us.
These are just my opinions
and I could be wrong. The elite may give up their power and control, the
Generals may become pacifists and the propagandists may begin to teach the
truth. People will wake from their brainwashing and everything is going to be
just fine. the wars will all end today. A massive campaign to feed the poor
will be launched tonight and we will no longer have 25,000 people starving to
death everyday. Hey I'm an optimist, what can I say.
Implementation of any new
system is going to be tough to sell unless it maintains the status quo. That's
why I thought a few million to create and launch it in the guise of
a video game and social network. How about Everbest, World of Peacecraft,
Commonwealth Commandos, Bankster Busters...
Until it becomes illegal I
intend to continue thinking, hence I like the thinkers aspect but don't
confine it to educated scholars, arresters, deacons and learned elders. Most
of them are as brainwashed as that poor soul in the sweatshop or the bomb
factory.
http://members.shaw.ca/davefparker/
Cheers.
Dave
-----Original
Message----- From: Sabzali Khan [sayusufzai(at)gmail.com] Sent: July 28, 2009 11:59 PM To:
wddm@world-wide-democracy.net Subject: Re: [WDDM] Why I support
World Government?
Dears Bruce,Parker,Lata,Hamid and other
Thinkers
Attached herewith the modified model/design of a
Democratic system for World Government and World Democracy.I am of the
view that it is a perfect Democratic system in all respect
and solves all the prevailed local, national and international
Political, social and economical problems of citizens of the World.Please
study it deeply and convey your contructive
response. sincerely
Authors of True Democracy(Professionalism) for World
Goverment.
On 7/27/09, Lata Gouveia wrote:
Mr Parker, I have to say these were by far the
two most interesting messages I ever read on WDDM. I just wrote an
extensive 6 paragraph message but I chose to delete it. I agree with
much of what you say, I am happy that someone else is seing the
benefits of a weighted voting mechanism and surprised that you came up
with the same terminology I have used in my personal ramblings. I
would also add that anonimity (real anonimity, no parties, no
celebrities in the electoral campaign process) would become (alongside
with weighted voting) a necessary condition for a practical
application of these ideas.
The reason why I deleted my
previous response is that, quite simply, times have changed. I am a
big Bill Hicks fan and... in little less than 20 years we find
ourselves in a world where his opinions would no longer be
broadcasteable, not only would today's middle classes despise his
delivery... he simply would not be allowed to perform nowadays. We
have been losing our personal rights and freedomes at a staggering
rate, over the last 8 years. We also have this internet thing... a
great tool no doubt, but we're supposed to use this tool to post
pictures of our latest drunken exploits, not to call for political
reform. They will see to that.
Quite simply, I think you are a
brave man for putting yourself out there in this way. Sounds like
science fiction, doesn't it? I wish it was so. We will soon fit the
official definition of a word I won't spell here. Call me
paranoid...
Either way, I think you're on the right track... I
think your discourse could benefit from focusing on the practical
aspects slightly more (which might give you more freedom/time to
achieve something) but I understand that passion gets the best of us
all at times. I enjoyed the website too...
Regards Lata
--- On Mon, 27/7/09, Hamid Mohseni
<esi1mohseni2(at)hotmail.com>
wrote:
From: Hamid Mohseni Subject: RE: [WDDM]
Why I support World Government? To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net Date: Monday,
27 July, 2009, 6:42 AM
What I mean is that people like
Ahmadinezhad, Pinochet and other corrupt and egoists does not
eaven accept corrupt democracies and try by cheating, money and
military change the system to toal dictatorships which gives them more
power and fun in behalf of other peoples suffering. We can not
live in blue and suppose that all people are gentle, educated and
humanist. To apply and practice direct democracy world governent
you should also plan all details to stop risks for sabotage,
decieving and violence against such a government. People
must be able to trust this government and see advantages with
implification of such a government.
So my question is how
we can plan and apply such a government practically with regard to all
risks and practical
problems?
Hamid
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009
12:49:41 -0500 From: bruce.eggum(at)gmail.com To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net Subject: Re: [WDDM]
Why I support World Government?
"so if you're going to create a
World Government, you have to start with the perfect model." I
don't demand perfection, however if we develop a model capable of
change with principles and limits defined we can together do
this. Competition would be improvement vs
stagnation/disfunction.
Bruce Eggum Gresham
Wisconsin, USA http://usinitiative.com http://vote.org/
On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Lata Gouveia
<latalondon(at)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Humm... ok. I see what
you mean by supporting World Government. I have two issues
with it. First of all, which system would this World Government
adopt? I fail to see which one is the best beyond all doubt.
Secondly, in the interest of evolution, if there were no
competing models, there would be no empirical evidence to
support reform, so if you're going to create a World Government,
you have to start with the perfect model. Look at how Obama
is trying to reform health care in the US. I others models
didn't exist that deliver better and fairer care for cheaper, he
would not have an argument for reform.
The sentiment is
good, though, I like it. __
--- On Sun, 26/7/09,
Hamid Mohseni <esi1mohseni2(at)hotmail.com>
wrote:
From: Hamid Mohseni
<esi1mohseni2(at)hotmail.com> Subject: RE:
[WDDM] Why I support World Government? To: "World Direct
Democracy" <wddm@world-wide-democracy.net> Date:
Sunday, 26 July, 2009, 5:56 PM
And I support your desire
if the world is governed by direct democracy principles. The
question is how we can do install and practicize
it? There always exist individuals who wants more than others
and don't respect other peoples rights. How can we defend
people against such egoists which many of them are powerful
and have illegal contact
nets?
Wonder Hamid
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009
04:06:27 -0700 From: sayusufzai(at)gmail.com To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net Subject:
[WDDM] Why I support World Government?
Why
I support World Government?
I
support a World Government so that the present helpless effete
UN may be substituted in to effective Democratic World
Government. Who will treat the human beings on the base of
humanity instead of nationality.
I
support a World Government so that the sustainable peace,
prosperity and justice may be prevailed World wide
equally.
I
support a World Government so that the difference in standard of
life between citizens of developed and under –developed
countries may be equalized World wide equally. .
I
support a World Government so that the true Democratic World
Orders may be prevailed World wide.
I
support a World Government so that the present Nation-to-Nation
exploitation may be restricted.
I
support a World Government because under which the human will
enjoy the actual LIBERTY, as the present restrictions of
boundaries among nations will be removed.
The
human beings is basically and naturally the co-share and
co-heirs of the whole Earth and its natural resources although
as such it become human right to enjoy the resources of the
Earth equally but under the prevailed orders it is impossible
for each human being to enjoy it. Therefore I support World
government under which the human beings on Earth will be able to
enjoy his heir right World -wide equally.
I
support a World Government because it will generate strict
competition in the Markets of the World which will not only
decrease the prices of commodities but also good quality of
commodity will be available in all Markets of the
World.
I
support a World Government so that the local, national and
international monopolization may be discouraged.
I
support a World Government so that the poor nations and
countries may be developed.
I
support a World Government so that to share the Ruling power,
better resources of income and high standard of life with Elite
people.
I
support a World Government so that the World standard Education
system may be initiated everywhere on Earth.
I
support a World Government because the prevailed worldwide
terrorism could only be restricted through World Law under World
Government. The
unity of the human community under World Government will lead to
sustainable peace and prosperity.
It
is stated briefly although there are numerous causes of
supporting World Government.
Further
details are available for interested
Citizens /Thinkers.
Best
wishes Sabzali
Khan yusufzai Authors
of True Democracy (Professionalism) for World Government.
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