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02040: Re: [WDDM] I spit in your face, Disambiguation

From: Dan Smith <draciron(at)gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:11:12 -0500
Subject: Re: [WDDM] I spit in your face, Disambiguation

Those were NOT Israelis. Not unless they disguised themselves in Arab
garb. I still have a copy of it somewhere. The excuse given was that
free bread was given out, but those seem people still lead them. If I
found out I was duped like that I'd been furious and removed those
people from power.

If, is not the question, I am a Texan and may well face a superpower
in the struggle for Texas independence. I would never resort to
intentionally killing women and children. Killing soldiers and
politicians, those are legit tactics and there's no shortage of those
targets. Killing police in some circumstances is a legit target for a
people at war with another nation. There are hundreds of insurgency
movements over the last century that did not resort to terrorism.
Terrorists are the exception. The IRA and Muslims are pretty much the
only consistent groups. There were exceptions. The OK city bombing an
example. The Japanese gassing another. There is no excuse for blowing
up buses and bombing shops and such. That is attempted genocide not a
military objective.

The fact is that the tactics of the IRA damaged their cause and
probably retarded their cause by 30 years or more. Had the IRA not
resorted to bombing pubs and killing innocents they would have enjoyed
strong support from many groups that turned away from the IRA in
disgust over it's tactics. The Nazis may well have lost the Battle of
Britain by switching to terror bombing from tactical bombing. The
terror bombing strengthened English resolve and allowed English
industry to rebuild. If I were a Palistinian I would target
infrastructure, economics and military targets. I would execute ANY
of my own who intentionally killed an innocent, especially a child.
You might as well shoot your own people if you use terrorism.

Sorry I don't buy the WTC conspiracy theory. First off show me the
graveyard. After the JFK cover up hundreds of people disapeered or
died young who were involved. There is no graveyard for 9-11. The
thousands necessary for the US too pull off such an operation preclude
the CIA involvement. The CIA can't blow it's nose without 20
Congressmen splattering the world with the details. How did the so
called explosives get planted? You could not possibly put enough
explosives to bring the building down without occupying office space,
stairways and such. No way you'd get Americans to commit suicide as
the "explosions" took place too high up for people to actually plant
them and still get out in time. The planes were clearly photographed
hitting the tower. I can go on and on. I've visited the 9-11
conspiracy sites. Loose change is so full of holes that even 9-11
conspiracists speak of it with derision. There was no motivation for
it. The invasion of Iraq was probably delayed by 9-11. Clinton was
rumbling about invading Iraq before he left office and Bush was on the
verge of it before 9-11 happened. Most of the elements of the Patriot
act were already in place under Bush Sr and Clinton. The Patriot act
just increased the numbers of wire taps and such and added the
imprisonment without trial stupidity that the supreme court eventually
rightly tossed. So why would both the Democrats and Republicans spend
all that money and time and take such dire risks to accomplish what?
There is no way that the US Gov could have accomplish such a plot
without both parties being involved. The risk was literally death. If
I honestly believed our own Gov was behind 9-11 I would be dragging
the politicians involved out on the lawn and hanging them on the spot.
The logic just isn't there. The motivation isn't there. The ability
isn't there.

The OK city bombings I'm more suspicious of. It would have taken only
a small group to accomplish and the OK city bombing discredited the
whole militia movement. Still I've seen no credible evidence of any
Gov involvment in the OK city bombing. I have often wondered whether
the Feds or a group at the behest of a Fed agent pulled the bombing
off. I've come to the conclusion that McViegh simply was blinded by
his anger. He did not consider the possibility of children being in
the building and did not comprehend the number of innocents who'd be
killed in striking at the Feds. Had McVeigh blown up only the top
story of the building he'd been hailed as a hero. People were furious
with the Feds and talk of revolt was starting.

Do you also believe that "Zionists" are behind all of it. A secret
cabal of wealthy bankers that are secretly controllling the whole
world. It's quite consistent with your other stated beliefs.The way
you state it is almost word for word what I've been swamped with by
Neo-Nazis repeatedly over the last couple years. When it fails to sway
me next I'm called something like a Mason or something else like that
which makes me one of those shadowy forces. Follow your statements to
their logical conclusion and it will be genocide. The imfamous "them"
those mysterious shadowy figures who are responsible for all the bad
things that ever happen too you. Hate to break it too you, the world
is a whole lot more chaotic than that. I am just a nobody out to make
the world better than when I entered it. I don't work for any
government, I'm not an agent of any secret organization. I don't need
some evil conspiracy to see wrong and fight it. Freedom is cause
enough to fight.

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:34 PM, Ron White <whitecastle46(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Dan,
The group that danced in the streets upon viewing the disastor of 9/11 were
Israelis not Arabs or Muslims as reported that day and subsequently over and
over on the mainstream medias sources.  Research ..research... research your
facts, please.  Ask yourself, to what militant or homicidal tactics would
you resort facing an opposing super power military force and their
firepower? No doubt, using ones body as a bomb is unthinkable for most. And
their targets are not always military. Neither was the use of force directed
at Palestinians finding military targets but rather innocent men, women and
children.
Recall that the Brits and the early American colonial aristocrats called
those who rebelled, resisted oppression, dissented or revolted 'terrorosts'.
Possibly, some were your great-grandfathers.
The Mossad , CIA and some agents of the FBI are the only entities on the
planet earth possessing the stealth, intel, motive, opportunity and cunning
to have pulled of the first WTC bombing, WTC 9/11, Oklahoma City
Fed building, Bali bombings , USS Cole and too many more.....the T. McVeys,
Indonesian Musims, Arabs, the Osamas are but the stooges and fall guys in
these operations. You surely have missed the mark as to where to look for
the actual culprits who are the 'axis of evil'.
RonWhite

--- On Fri, 4/17/09, Dan Smith <draciron(at)gmail.com> wrote:

From: Dan Smith <draciron(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WDDM] I spit in your face, Disambiguation
To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 12:44 PM

Marxism isn't Democracy, Marxism puts far too much power in the hands
of too few people. Democracy's goal is the opposite to put power in
the hands of the people. The stated goal of Marxism is power for the
"workers" and sharing of resources, however it is the enforced sharing
of resources that strips the power away from people. It is the
leveling of people to the lowest common denominator that strips power
away from people. People are not born with equal skills, needs or
wants. Democracy is about opportunity, Marxism is about equality and
uniformity.

The Kibbutzs are community efforts. They exist in a Democratic society
rather than replace it. They performed an important role in Israel and
as much as I despise Socialism such communities would be helpful in
places like America to avoid welfare type solutions. As a place for
people starting out or who fall on hard times they are an excellent
refuge. Typically in Israeli society the core of the population in
Kibbutzs are young people who typically spend a few years at the
Kibbutz then move out to Capitalistic society. I don't claim to be an
expert on Israel so perhaps I am not fully understanding the role they
play in Israel's society.

I don't see how name calling and the imflaming of differences is
productive to the discussion. The post I responded too was clearly an
attack on Jews, a product of the "Zionist" compspiracy theorists and a
magnet for getting the group labeled as Nazis. If labeled as such then
anything we attempt to accomplish will be drenched in the stench of
those posts.

I am rather new to this group, if being labeled as Nazis is fine you
guys fine I'll leave the list and dissassociate with the group. You
will alienate many future members by posting such attacks on Jews. I
don't even see it as an attractive target even if you take the hate
Israel tact, compared to what China is doing to Tibetens, the way
China is crushing the Democracy movement in China the worst
accusations possible against Israel are at best petty compared to the
actions of China for example. There are many other places where
Democracy is being crushed brutally with body counts that far exceed
the worst misconstrued figures in Israel.Personally I have zero
sympathy for a group that danced in the streets upon the news of 9-11.
A group that has autonomy and who merely needed to cease firing
rockets into Israel to avoid the latest violence. A group that
celibrates nut jobs blowing up busses full of women and children,
gives them heroes funerals.  How is such actions productive for a
Democracy. That is simple tyranny.  All the shouting in the world
isn't going to change my opinion nor draw my support for Palistinians.
The actions of Palisitinians who are who first brought us terrorism.
The group who started the plane hijackings, who blew up Europeans for
the sin of being Europeans, who hijacked boats, attacked airports.
This is a discredited group who's actions in most nations would have
gotten them wiped out. They started doing what they are doing in the
US if the Government didn't take them out the people would gather
together and do it.  In my opinion Israel has been remarkable in it's
tolerance. If you want to debate who's land it is then we can spend
pages deciding who's land it is. Genetically the Palistinians and
Israelis are the same people. Palistine is a British creation so there
was no Palistine to "invade". The land has been owned by successive
empires going back thousands of years. Both groups were less than
reasonable while the British were pulling out. If you support giving
Palistine back  then how can you stand silent about Tibet?  You also
must support the removal of Europeans, Asians and Africans from the
Americas, the removal of Muslims from Eastern Europe, and so on.  The
whole mess is a web of issues, a conflict of cultures, international
politics. Getting into is does what to promote Democracy of any kind?
Nothing. It is a dive into a pool of slime and any effort just gets
you slimed no matter which side you take. Israel today is the same
people divided by religion and culture not an issue of Democracy. I
don't think you can solve any such issues until you resolve the
conflicts first. Do that and Democracy would be easy to achieve.

Other folks hate Jews and every effort I've made to show Jews as just
humans in the past has fallen on deaf ears.  I don't believe there is
some huge conspiracy of Jewish bankers to control the world. There are
no UN cattle cars with shackles installed in the US or other such
bizarre paranoia.  Nothing I say will change their minds. Muslims have
been told they are traitors to their religion should they not be
against Israel. Nothing I say is going to change their minds. Even if
they agreed with me the potential risks including possibly being
killed in some nations for dissenting against their religious leaders
means they can't even say they agree even if they do. At best they
will be ostricized, denied government jobs and far worse can happen to
a Muslim living in a Muslim nation who supports Israel.

So again we cannot even have an honest world wide debate on the issue
without putting any members we have in such nations in potential
danger. To me it is a divise issue that will just cost the movement
membership, exhaust our resources, be used in Western nations as a
method to discredit our efforts.

You have NOT addressed any of these issues I've repeatedly raised. I
say the whole topic is a land mine. Nothing good can come of raising
it.



On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Georges Metanomski <zgmet(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

"I spit in your face" may appear offensive and not
pertinent to DD. Especially to supporters of the recent
neo nazi harangues.

Actually it's the first historical DD resolution,
at least the first one I came across.

In
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/POLITICS/shadow_eng.html
I present the kibbutzim as the only truly DD social
group in the history.

I have joined a kibbutz at age of 13 in Mila str. Warsaw
Ghetto.

Mila str. 18 in Warsaw Ghetto is better known as the
QG of the Uprising, but it was the site of a
HaShomer HaTzair marxist kibbutz positing the global,
international, secular DD, whose secretary was
Mordechai Anielewicz. The members dreamt about a new
human world, knowing that they will never see it, that
they had a few months to live and that the only option
left was their first historic DD decision - to follow
Mordechai's call to die upright SPITTING IN THEIR FACE
(see Appendix).

Georges.
=====================>> Appendix "I SPIT IN YOUR FACE".

"I spit in your face" is a historic quotation,
which I endeavored to make my motto under certain
circumstances. Actually, Mordechai Anielewicz did
not invent it, calling Ghetto inmates to die
upright, spitting morally in the face of deathsmen
who perpetrated the Holocaust of 6 million Jews,
10 million Christians, 1900 Catholic priests,
innumerable Gipsies, Gays, Handicapped ...
and entered the Ghetto to send the few survivors
to gas.

The original "Germans, I spit in your face" was
uttered by Warsaw Mayor Starzynski in his last
speech on the day of Warsaw surrender at the
end of September 1939. I heard it and recall
exactly these words, but only vaguely the rest,
which was something like: "To morrow you will
enter my office and find me sitting behind
my desk. Don't expect me to stand up and cede
you my place. It will stay vacant after you
pull me out by force. You will torture me and
try to make me scream excuses and implore your
pardon. You may succeed, yet it won't be me,
but a piece of lacerated flesh. These here
are my last words and they will stay so in
history: "Germans, I spit in your face".



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