Re: [WDDM] I spit in your face, Disambiguation

[Dan Smith <draciron(at)gmail.com>]

Marxism isn't Democracy, Marxism puts far too much power in the hands
of too few people. Democracy's goal is the opposite to put power in
the hands of the people. The stated goal of Marxism is power for the
"workers" and sharing of resources, however it is the enforced sharing
of resources that strips the power away from people. It is the
leveling of people to the lowest common denominator that strips power
away from people. People are not born with equal skills, needs or
wants. Democracy is about opportunity, Marxism is about equality and
uniformity.

The Kibbutzs are community efforts. They exist in a Democratic society
rather than replace it. They performed an important role in Israel and
as much as I despise Socialism such communities would be helpful in
places like America to avoid welfare type solutions. As a place for
people starting out or who fall on hard times they are an excellent
refuge. Typically in Israeli society the core of the population in
Kibbutzs are young people who typically spend a few years at the
Kibbutz then move out to Capitalistic society. I don't claim to be an
expert on Israel so perhaps I am not fully understanding the role they
play in Israel's society.

I don't see how name calling and the imflaming of differences is
productive to the discussion. The post I responded too was clearly an
attack on Jews, a product of the "Zionist" compspiracy theorists and a
magnet for getting the group labeled as Nazis. If labeled as such then
anything we attempt to accomplish will be drenched in the stench of
those posts.

I am rather new to this group, if being labeled as Nazis is fine you
guys fine I'll leave the list and dissassociate with the group. You
will alienate many future members by posting such attacks on Jews. I
don't even see it as an attractive target even if you take the hate
Israel tact, compared to what China is doing to Tibetens, the way
China is crushing the Democracy movement in China the worst
accusations possible against Israel are at best petty compared to the
actions of China for example. There are many other places where
Democracy is being crushed brutally with body counts that far exceed
the worst misconstrued figures in Israel.Personally I have zero
sympathy for a group that danced in the streets upon the news of 9-11.
A group that has autonomy and who merely needed to cease firing
rockets into Israel to avoid the latest violence. A group that
celibrates nut jobs blowing up busses full of women and children,
gives them heroes funerals.  How is such actions productive for a
Democracy. That is simple tyranny.  All the shouting in the world
isn't going to change my opinion nor draw my support for Palistinians.
The actions of Palisitinians who are who first brought us terrorism.
The group who started the plane hijackings, who blew up Europeans for
the sin of being Europeans, who hijacked boats, attacked airports.
This is a discredited group who's actions in most nations would have
gotten them wiped out. They started doing what they are doing in the
US if the Government didn't take them out the people would gather
together and do it.  In my opinion Israel has been remarkable in it's
tolerance. If you want to debate who's land it is then we can spend
pages deciding who's land it is. Genetically the Palistinians and
Israelis are the same people. Palistine is a British creation so there
was no Palistine to "invade". The land has been owned by successive
empires going back thousands of years. Both groups were less than
reasonable while the British were pulling out. If you support giving
Palistine back  then how can you stand silent about Tibet?  You also
must support the removal of Europeans, Asians and Africans from the
Americas, the removal of Muslims from Eastern Europe, and so on.  The
whole mess is a web of issues, a conflict of cultures, international
politics. Getting into is does what to promote Democracy of any kind?
Nothing. It is a dive into a pool of slime and any effort just gets
you slimed no matter which side you take. Israel today is the same
people divided by religion and culture not an issue of Democracy. I
don't think you can solve any such issues until you resolve the
conflicts first. Do that and Democracy would be easy to achieve.

Other folks hate Jews and every effort I've made to show Jews as just
humans in the past has fallen on deaf ears.  I don't believe there is
some huge conspiracy of Jewish bankers to control the world. There are
no UN cattle cars with shackles installed in the US or other such
bizarre paranoia.  Nothing I say will change their minds. Muslims have
been told they are traitors to their religion should they not be
against Israel. Nothing I say is going to change their minds. Even if
they agreed with me the potential risks including possibly being
killed in some nations for dissenting against their religious leaders
means they can't even say they agree even if they do. At best they
will be ostricized, denied government jobs and far worse can happen to
a Muslim living in a Muslim nation who supports Israel.

So again we cannot even have an honest world wide debate on the issue
without putting any members we have in such nations in potential
danger. To me it is a divise issue that will just cost the movement
membership, exhaust our resources, be used in Western nations as a
method to discredit our efforts.

You have NOT addressed any of these issues I've repeatedly raised. I
say the whole topic is a land mine. Nothing good can come of raising
it.



On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Georges Metanomski <zgmet(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
> "I spit in your face" may appear offensive and not
> pertinent to DD. Especially to supporters of the recent
> neo nazi harangues.
>
> Actually it's the first historical DD resolution,
> at least the first one I came across.
>
> In
> http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/POLITICS/shadow_eng.html
> I present the kibbutzim as the only truly DD social
> group in the history.
>
> I have joined a kibbutz at age of 13 in Mila str. Warsaw
> Ghetto.
>
> Mila str. 18 in Warsaw Ghetto is better known as the
> QG of the Uprising, but it was the site of a
> HaShomer HaTzair marxist kibbutz positing the global,
> international, secular DD, whose secretary was
> Mordechai Anielewicz. The members dreamt about a new
> human world, knowing that they will never see it, that
> they had a few months to live and that the only option
> left was their first historic DD decision - to follow
> Mordechai's call to die upright SPITTING IN THEIR FACE
> (see Appendix).
>
> Georges.
> ======================
> Appendix "I SPIT IN YOUR FACE".
>
> "I spit in your face" is a historic quotation,
> which I endeavored to make my motto under certain
> circumstances. Actually, Mordechai Anielewicz did
> not invent it, calling Ghetto inmates to die
> upright, spitting morally in the face of deathsmen
> who perpetrated the Holocaust of 6 million Jews,
> 10 million Christians, 1900 Catholic priests,
> innumerable Gipsies, Gays, Handicapped ...
> and entered the Ghetto to send the few survivors
> to gas.
>
> The original "Germans, I spit in your face" was
> uttered by Warsaw Mayor Starzynski in his last
> speech on the day of Warsaw surrender at the
> end of September 1939. I heard it and recall
> exactly these words, but only vaguely the rest,
> which was something like: "To morrow you will
> enter my office and find me sitting behind
> my desk. Don't expect me to stand up and cede
> you my place. It will stay vacant after you
> pull me out by force. You will torture me and
> try to make me scream excuses and implore your
> pardon. You may succeed, yet it won't be me,
> but a piece of lacerated flesh. These here
> are my last words and they will stay so in
> history: "Germans, I spit in your face".