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01710: Re: [WDDM] Getting the whole picture about DD

From: Georges Metanomski <zgmet(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 10:36:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [WDDM] Getting the whole picture about DD

--- Antonio Rossin <rossin(at)tin.it> wrote:

Georges,

There are some flaws about your three functions (+1)
below:

1. Supporting individual proposals is at
powerholders' hands, who
usually support and select the proposals that are in
support to just
themselves.
==============
G:
Once in DD, there is no "powerholder" else than the
Forum. Support of individual proposals is a function
of the logistic support, which accepts and dieplays
proposals for the next step, the debate.
==============
2. Consensus building is a matter of top-down
propaganda leading
to the bandwagon machinery among suggestible people.
=============
G:
There is no top, nor down, but absolutely equal Forum.
Nor is there any bandwagon, but just the Forum.
Secretary of Kibbutz has no legislative power, only
executive, not by representation, but by delegation.
In practice nobody wants it, as it's more work and
responsibility without any personal advantage. They
accept it, when selected by Forum, as a duty, like
all members of Kubbutz, when selected for some job.
So, there is no propaganda.
=============
3. Decisions that are run accordingly can even be
correct formally,
but top-down orchestrated substantially by the 1.
powerholders.
===============
G:
There is no top, no down, no powerholding and no
orchestration. Just a free debate and decision falling
automatically upon reaching a consensus threshold.
===============
+1. as for the Kibbutz as a basic point to build up
a nation, let me
CC your suggestion to Akiva Orr (see:
http://www.akiorrbooks.org )
who is very likely to witness this matter directly.
Hi, Aki
==================
G:
False info will result in false reactions.
I said that the experience of Ha Shomer Ha Zair is
a valuable guideline, but that it has to be ADJUSTED
not directly applied at the national level.
In particular the necessary 3 Function E-Platform
raises for such sizes, as yet unformulated, let alone
solved problems. I proposed to identify and to
study them.

Georges.
=======================


Regards, have a good Easter

antonio


Georges Metanomski wrote:
--- Antonio Rossin <rossin(at)tin.it> wrote:


No, Georges.

(Direct) Democracy does not stand in what is
dropped
top-down
to people, be it the Holy Scriptures.

Democracy stands in people becoming capable of
approaching
any "truth", the scientific ones included, from
bottom-up, indeed,
responsibly and critically, to wit,
dialectically.

Those self-claiming democracy-lovers who do not
understand the
difference, even though they are valuable
scientists, are a damage
to (direct) Democracy.

===============
"Democracy" stands for a governance system and not
for approaching any 'truth's", whatever it may
mean,
from "bottom-up". Voting bottom-up (ir)responsibly
(un)critically and ignorantly for string theory
against General Relativity would not be democratic
but idiotic.

The 3 Functions of DD:

1.Initiative (supporting individual proposals)
2.Debate (consensus building)
3.Decision (upon a consensus threshold; no
snapshot
vote)

support exactly the bottom-up people's governance.

Struggle to promote and implement this structure
is necessarily in the hands of some activist
groups,
as at the outset people ignore it. Thus the
activists
of Ha Shomer Ha Zair (HSHZ) battled for over 50
years
to implement first DD Kibbutzim (first ones in
Poland,

including the one leading the Warsaw Ghetto
Uprising).


HSHZ limited its action to informing, motivating
and
assisting motivated people to create DD Kibbutzim
self-governed with the 3 DD functions. Once a
Kibbutz
created, HSHZ let it go by itself and stayed away,
unless asked for technical assistance.

We have a working and successful example and all I

suggest is to walk in the steps of HSHZ, adjusted
of course for the difference of context. Thus, to
start by considering these adjustments, especially

for the size moved from a Kibbutz to a nation.

Georges.
==================


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