From: Jiri Polak <jiri.polak(at)swipnet.se>
To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
Sent: Sat, 22 January, 2011 10:03:19
Subject: Re: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS SHOULD MAKE A ROADMAP to 3D Democracy !
George,
very good indeed!!! Greece is one of the most promising countries in the
field of DD developments, much thanks to your efforts. I believe that the
basic issue all democracy movements should focus on is the idea of a
Citizens´ Democracy. In all European countries except Switzerland, the
respective constitution has been written and approved by voting in party
dominated Parliament. But political parties do not have the mandate for
that. Ordinary citizens should propose their own Constitution and
enforce a
referendum by pressure from below. That´s what we in Czech Republic are
trying to do. We should change the system, not only make marginal
adjustments.
Sincerely, Jiri
----- Original Message -----
From: "DIMOPOLIS.gr-ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΟ ΚΙΝΗΜΑ ΑΜΕΣΗΣ ΔΗΜΟΚΡΑΤΙΑΣ" <
geoko(at)otenet.gr>
To: <wddm@world-wide-democracy.net>
Cc: <
direct-democracy-movement(at)googlegroups.com>; <
georgantzas(at)fordham.edu>;
'George Contogeorgis'Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 6:36 AM
Subject: RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS SHOULD MAKE A ROADMAP to
3D Democracy !
Dear Co-citizens of the world and WDDM,
I am happy to read your recent interesting comments on DD affairs
influenced by our wish for " MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS", but
completely unhappy to know that in Tunisia the people have won to push
out their corrupted oligarchic government and although they continue
asking for better democratic developments, sacrificing people in this
struggle, nobody tells or helps them to ask for a direct democratic
governance as an alternative choice !
And we the members and friends
of WDDM, ten years since our birth in Delfi, do not have a concrete
clear proposal and "Roadmap to Direct Democracy" to say them !
Unfortunately so many discussions have been made through the Internet
on several DD topics and also more ideas have been expressed
theoretically in our site, but all remain vague and not practical to be
used by revolutions or even DD political Movements all over the World.
Yesterday in Albania three active citizens were killed in a
demonstration asking for more Democracy against their corrupted
politicians, but we still look like having nothing clear
and inclusive
to advise them to do for an authentic Democratic Reform!
I think that in my country Greece we 'll face soon the same
revolutionary conditions against the rules that IMF in cooperation with
Greek Oligarchies press us to accept, but even if our government
fails, there is no chance to make a real change from Oligarchies to
Direct Democracy, if we will not have a plan and serious
International asssistance to make it happen!
Therefore we begun recently to shape alternative institutions made by
Citizens in order to find our way for a DD change in Greece soon ! WE
first begun establishing
an alternative Citizens Parliament ( you can
watch its works in our site:
www.dimopolis.gr )and now a Citizens Court,
Called " NEA HELIAIA", inspired by the ancient Athenian People's Court
with 5000 judges, and we move rapidly forward offerng you a new site for
international DD cooperation:
http://www.3ddemocracy.eu/. Please enjoy
and use it for your articles or advices, using it as a tool for shaping
an International ROADMAP to 3D ( Direct, Deliberative, Digital ) Democracy
!
George Kokkas
Coordinator of the Hellenic Direct Democracy Movement
Τηλ.:+30 2103648300 - Fax: +30 2103610882
geoko(at)otenet.grwww.dimopolis.gr-----Original Message-----
From:
Ted BeckerSent: Friday, January 21, 2011 11:32 PM
To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
Subject: Re: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
Agreed...pragmatically. I was just discussing the theory, not
recommending that this be part of your proposal at this time.
>>>
Jiri Polak 1/21/2011 1:39 PM >>>
I agree that random selection of representatives would be superior to
election,
but it is a system belonging probably to a rather distant future.
I focus on a system which could be pushed through in the next few years.
Once in place, steps might be taken to reach a higher stage of democracy,
i.e. random selection. However, there are many factors we cannot foresee at
this moment. I belive that an attempt to jump directly to random
representation from current party-based representative systems would fail.
This could be one of the themes for discussion at the coming conference.
Jiri
----- Original Message -----
From:
Ted BeckerTo: <wddm@world-wide-democracy.net>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
> Excuse me, but there is
STRONG EVIDENCE that randomly selected
> legislatures work very well...and are TRULY representative of the
people
> if we mean by that: demographically. All elected representative
systems
> have elites that supposedly "represent" the people (please read
Edmund
> Burke's indefensible address to his constituents in Bristol,
England).
>
> Citizens Assemblies as at least one of the two houses would
complement
> the direct, deliberative democratic part of any system.
>
> Ted Becker
>
>>>>
Jiri Polak 1/21/2011 9:20 AM >>>
> Correct. But most people are too lazy and passive to want to
constantly
> vote on all issues. It would not be realistic to try to put in place
> such a system. Some form of representation will be
indispensable for
the
> foreseeable future. However, the representatives will be under
constant
> scrutiny and susceptible to be recalled at any moment if guilty of
> misconduct. What we strive for is semi-direct democracy with strong
> elements of deliberation.
> Jiri
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hamid Mohseni
> To: World Direct Democracy
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 3:12 PM
> Subject: RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
>
>
> And what about people who like to manage the job themselves and not
> employ others for that. The experience shows that this politician
> managers has seldom been honest and soon or later has taken over
the
> power and used it for their own egoistik matters.
>
>
Hamid
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From:
jimpowell(at)mweb.co.za> To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:38:12 +0200
> Subject: RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
>
>
> Hi Hamid,
>
>
>
> Having the voters making decisions on all matters is a waste of
time.
> The politicians are employed to consider the information and make
> decisions, similar to managers employed by shareholders in a
company.
> The voters are the shareholders and the politicians the managers
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Jim
Powell South Africa
>
>
>
> From:
Hamid Mohseni> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 7:24 PM
> To: World Direct Democracy
> Subject: RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
>
>
>
> The Swiss system is better than many other countries but not good
> enough, because stíll it is politicians and not people who are the
> leaders eventhogh people can stop politicians decisions and
propositions
> sometimes.
>
> Hamid
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From:
jimpowell(at)mweb.co.za> To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:47:38 +0200
> Subject: RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
>
> I think the Swiss have got it right (mostly)
>
>
>
> Have your politicians investigate and propose new laws. The
> electorate will have access to all the information and can raise a
> referendum if enough of them are unhappy with the legislation. A
> referendum is held and the will of the people is sovereign.
>
>
>
> 97% of legislation in Switzerland goes through without objection.
The
> laws that are passed will be created with the knowledge that they can
be
> challenged, so they are voter friendly
>
>
>
> Jim Powell South Africa
>
>
>
>
From:
Hamid Mohseni> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 8:18 PM
> To: World Direct Democracy
> Subject: RE: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
>
>
>
> As I understand real direct democracy dońt need politicians as
> represents or leaders but advisors and organizers. Their job is to
> inform people about political facts and theories
> and organize refrandums and realise the result of refrandums and
> decisions made by people
> in common political and practical questions.
>
> Regards
> Hamid
>
> > From:
jiri.polak(at)swipnet.se> > To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
> > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:06:18 +0100
> > Subject: Re: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
> >
> > Dear Fred,
> > as far as I see, the model of PD you put forward is compatible
with
> my own
> > ideas, which are much more simple and only rudimentary. The PD
> model is
> > certainly worth studying. Íll bring an information about it in
the
> next
> > issue of my newsletter.
> > Sincerely, Jiri Polak
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From:
Fred Gohlke> > To: <wddm@world-wide-democracy.net>
> > Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 11:14 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WDDM] MANY ACTIVE MEMBERS AND VOTERS
> >
> >
> > > Good Afternoon, Jiri
> > >
> > > From your January 14th post:
> > >
> > > "The basic fault ... is to call party-based regimes
> 'democracy'".
> > >
> > > From your January 16th post:
> > >
> > > "But I - and many others - also want a system where elected
> > > representatives get continuous feedback from their voters who
> > > can recall them at any moment (not only during elecions) if
> > > the majority within the respective constituency
demand it."
> > >
> > > Have you thought about the way Practical Democracy functions?
It
>
> > > addresses and resolves both the points you make; the first
> because it
> > > sidesteps political parties and the second because it is
> inherently
> > > bi-directional.
> > >
> > > Political Parties
> > > -----------------
> > > Over two hundred years experience with party politics informs
us
> that,
> > > when politics is based on partisanship, the partisans form
> oligarchic
> > > power blocs that become an end in themselves and ultimately
> transcend the
> > > will of the people.
> > >
> > > Partisanship is a potent tool for those with a thirst for power
> but
it
> > > does not foster government by the people. It results in
> government by a
> > > small fraction of the people. For the people as a whole, the
> flaws in
> > > party politics are devastating. Their cumulative effect
> victimizes the
> > > public by the most basic and effective strategy of domination
---
> divide
> > > and conquer.
> > >
> > > Parties are important for the principals: the party leaders,
> > > contributors, candidates and elected officials, but the
> significance
> > > diminishes rapidly as the distance from the center of power
> grows. Most
> > > people are on the periphery, remote from the centers of power.
As
>
> > > outsiders, they have little incentive to participate in the
>
political
> > > process.
> > >
> > > The challenge of representative democracy is not to divide the
> public into
> > > blocs but to find the best advocates of the common interest and
> raise them
> > > to leadership positions as the people's representatives.
> > >
> > > To meet that challenge, given the range of public issues and
the
> way each
> > > individual's interest in political matters varies over time, an
> effective
> > > electoral process must examine the entire electorate during
each
> election
> > > cycle, seeking the people's best advocates. It must let every
> voter
> > > influence the outcome of each election to the best of their
> desire and
> > > ability, and it must ensure
that those selected as
> representatives are
> > > disposed to serve the public interest.
> > >
> > > Practical Democracy allows voters to quickly and easily align
> themselves
> > > with others who share their views. It changes the focus of
> advocates of a
> > > partisan position from getting votes for a politician to
> persuading voters
> > > of the value of the idea they espouse. It lets every faction
> select, from
> > > among themselves, the best champions of their point of view and
> raise them
> > > as far as the size of the group allows.
> > >
> > > One huge flaw in the party-based systems that dominate the
globe
> is that
> > > individuals must support one of the existing parties or be
denied
> a
voice
> > > in the political process. They have no way to prevent the
> excesses of the
> > > parties.
> > >
> > > Practical Democracy gives unaligned people a voice. Those who
> advocate
> > > partisan interests must ultimately present their point of view
to
> voters
> > > who may not share their view. This provides unaligned people
with
> a
> > > countervailing force that prevents domination by any party.
> > >
> > > PD allows, indeed encourages, enclaves to easily form and
attract
>
> > > adherents. As Jane Mansbridge said in The Deliberative System
> > > Disaggregated, "Enclaves are good at generating new ideas.
> Everyday talk
> > > is good at applying ideas and selecting those best
applicable
to
> common
> > > experience." That is how fresh ideas are introduced into
society,
> but
> > > they cannot impose their will unless they are able to persuade
> the
> > > unaligned of the value of their ideas. PD guarantees that fresh
> ideas
> > > will be accommodated to the extent they are deemed worthy by
the
>
> > > electorate.
> > >
> > > Bi-directionality
> > > -----------------
> > > Practical Democracy is inherently bi-directional. Because each
> advancing
> > > participant and elected official sits atop a pyramid of known
> electors,
> > > questions on specific issues can easily be transmitted directly
> to and
> > > from the electors for the guidance or instruction
of the
> official. This
> > > capability offers those who implement the process a broad
scope,
> ranging
> > > from simple polling of constituents to referenda on selected
> issues and
> > > recall of an elected representative.
> > >
> > > If you are interested in these concepts, the process is
described
> in
> > > Paricipedia at:
> > >
> > >
http://participedia.net/wiki/Practical_Democracy> > >
> > >
> > > I wonder if you'll find value in it.
> > >
> > > Fred Gohlke
> >