Re: [WDDM] Response to Hamid Mohseni

["Esi" <esi1mohseni2(at)hotmail.com>]

You are right that people can be deceived. The question is how long or many
times and how much. Even children learn after some time to resist cheating
adults and stop to trust
such people. Decieving people does not make so much harm if the deceiver
have not so much power to dominate their offers. In most of societies
suffering of corrupt democracies
and dictators most people are aware that they are deceived or abused by the
power but they can not resist or change it to the better because they have
not power or alternatives.
People need money, food, house, security and many other necessities and most
of these resources are controlled by authorities. Authorities are very well
aware of it and use all
these means to force people in the direction they like. In the times when
people revolt and risk everything they have authorities use even police and
military to stop people demands.
A good example for this is Iran and what is happening there. Despite of all
censorship and dictatorship in centuries most of people there are clearly
aware that colonialists and local
govenments installed by them has always deceived and abused them but
everytime they revolt they meet military and police armed by weapons
delivered by colonial countries and
their local government which have monopol on almost all resource in the
country. If people could control these resources in a democratic way
together nobody could use it against
them.

I know that there are a lot of different definitions for democracy.
I can not call a society as democratic If it is defined in detail by some
few persons like me. All individuals in a society who desire and can must
have right to participate in creating
and developing the definition of democracy in the society continously.

My opionion or suggestion about concepts and practice of a proper democracy
is as following:

- Some kind of database, library, center or centers  can be established
where all individuals who wish can declare and register their problems,
complains, desires, and
  suggestions for changes. These registers should be easy to access, search
and study for all people.  Lets call this as register, A.

- Some kind of database, library, center or centers  can be established
where all individuals, scientists, researcher, experts can register and
explain information, articles and theories
  related to the register A. Let call this as register B. This should be
organized so that by choosing one subject in register A you can easily get
access to related articles and
  explanations in register B.

- Some kind of database, library, center or centers  can be established
where all individuals can register suggestions for new decisions, rules,
laws, developments and changes for
  voting by people. Lets call this for register C. This should be organized
so that probable existing subjects in register A and B related to subjects
in register C can be accessed and
  studied by all indiviuals who like to participate in voting for each
subject. Some kind of administrators or experts could review all subjects to
see if these subjects are in conflict
  with each other and in this case finding ways to omit conflicting
subjects. They could also review all subjects to see if several subject
could be put together to fewer subjects for
  voting.

- Some kind of database, library, center or centers  can be established
where all individuals who wish can participate in voting for subjects in
register C. It would be good if voters
  were tested in some way (for example answering to some questions) to see
if they have necessary knowlekge for participating in voting process for
related subject in register C.
  Administrators in this center or centers could organize rules and
necessary resources for voting for each subjects. Administrators in these
centers could also create
  attributes for registering the status of each subject in register C like
(new, planned for voting, voted and the result of voting for each subject)

- Some kind of center or centers and registers can be established  where
people and administrator could plan and vote for performance and financing
to realize the results of votes
  or decisions made by people and administrators.

- Some kind of organization could also be established to control other
organizations that the jobs are performed properly and prevent mistakes and
cheatings.

This is an example to some basical rules which can be developed by time and
practice in the society by voters and administrators.

It is probably necessary to have some kind of military or police
organisation too to stop and prevent threats against the society and
established democratic organisations from
inside and outside the society. This military must consist and controlled
severly by all people and not some few adminstrators or leaders.

This is an idea from me but all suggestions and  critics are welcome to find
a practical way to realize concepts of direct democracy in a society.

Regards
Hamid


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jiri Polak" <jiri.polak(at)swipnet.se>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 3:02 PM
To: <wddm@world-wide-democracy.net>
Subject: Re: [WDDM] Response to Hamid Mohseni

> Dear all,
> I believe that most people agree that it is necessary to  put forward a
> definition of the concept of DEMOCRACY most, if not all, people will
> approve and accept. In Athens 3.-4. October, at the second DDEV meeting,
> we will try to reach such an agreement. Anybody willing to participate at
> this discussion would be welcome. It is still time to contact the
> organizer, George Kokkas, geoko(at)otenet.gr if some of you would decide to
> go to Athens - the cradle of democracy and of the Western civilisation in
> general. A report from the meeting will be published in the usual
> channels.
> Sincerely,                           Jiri Polak
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fred Gohlke" <fredgohlke(at)verizon.net>
> To: <wddm@world-wide-democracy.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:50 PM
> Subject: [WDDM] Response to Hamid Mohseni
>
>
> > Good Morning, Hamid
> >
> > re: "We should not forget that it is the present corrupt
> >      democracies and diktator societies which gives enough
> >      economicall and politicall power to few individuals and in
> >      this way makes it possible for them to manipulate and
> >      decieve peoiple by propaganda and other means."
> >
> > I agree with you, but I would point out that it is even more important to
> > understand how and why the democracies deteriorated to their present
> > state.  If we don't understand how it happened, we can't prevent a
> > recurrence.
> >
> > The people are, indeed, manipulated and deceived.  The work of B. F.
> > Skinner and the behavioral scientists lets our leaders (political and
> > commercial) milk us like cows ... and the growth of mass communications
> > has made their efforts inescapable.  These people are very good at what
> > they do, and their success is the strongest argument against 'direct
> > democracy'.
> >
> > If we are to defeat deception and manipulation we must find people who
> > are superior to the deceivers and manipulators.  We have such people
> > among us. What we lack is a means of finding them and raising them to
> > positions of leadership.
> >
> >
> > re: "In proper functioning democracies it would be more difficult
> >      for few people to manipulate others for their own interest
> >      because the power is shared between bigge number of
> >      individuals."
> >
> > Of course, but what ... exactly ... is a 'proper functioning democracy'.
> > How is it organized?  How does it work?
> >
> > It is easy to say the people must make all the decisions.  It is not as
> > easy to say how they should do so.  Will you allow public officials? How
> > will they be selected?  What will be their role?
> >
> > Failure to consider these questions is what causes the huge gap between
> > the theory of democracy and its actual practice.  It is precisely because
> > we have failed to consider these questions and provide sensible answers
> > for them that 'politicians' have been able to take control of our
> > governments.
> >
> > Fred Gohlke