Re: [WDDM] I spit in your face, Disambiguation

[Dan Smith <draciron(at)gmail.com>]

Wrong, the long rambling anti-Jewish rant titled Lost Boys is what
prompted my disgust. He literally called Jews Natural born killers in
the same post complete with the link. The whole gist of his long rant
was to compare Jews to Vampires.  I find that to be about as blunt and
blatant anti-semitism as you can get. He might as well attach a jpg of
a Swastika to that post.

My point is that there are issues that have to be solved before you
can even talk about Democracy in Israel. I think it is way beyond the
scope of the group to attempt a solution to the problems in Israel.

Another point I made was that there are far more severe abuses going
on in nations we CAN make a difference in. China being foremost of
those. China has a strong Democratic movement. The transition to
Democracy in China would be an excellent opportunity to see a major
nation switch to Direct Democracy. There are no social/cultural issues
to solve before DD can be promoted.

A point I've repeatedly made is that Nazi rants like Lost Boys will
get this organization slandered in Western nations removing our
credibility.

I've seen no expansionist movement from Israel in over 40 years. In
fact they've ceded large amounts of territory in recent years. I
cannot understand the basis of your claim that Israel is in
expansionist mode. China on the other hand has invaded Tibet in the
last decade. Has in the last 20 years made incursions into other
nations. In the last several years has threatened to invade Taiwan
which is a Democracy, a working Democracy. Has interfered with
Democracy in Taiwan and the US. China has been contributed huge sums
of money buying US and Taiwanese politicians. Likely they've been
doing the same thing in Japan as well. China has imposed censorship
upon it's people forcing even Google to finally relent to China's
censorship efforts.

In short dealing with Israel no matter which side you support is just
spitting in the wind when it comes to DD. Israel has bigger fish to
fry and bigger crisis's to solve such as Iran's threats to nuke it off
the face of the Earth.

What about the crisis in Thailand? Not a peep. Thailand is a land that
could use our help. Why waste time tilting at a windmill when the same
efforts might actually yield results.

I'm sorry I'm not buying the excuse to trash Jews. I'm not especially
fond of Palistinians as a group but I would still standing up against
attempts to "reform" the Palistinians who's "Democracy" is more of a
farce than anything else.   Dissent will get you killed in Gaza.
Democracy cannot survive in a land where there can be no dissent. I
find it the ultimate in hypocracy to attack Israel when Hamas is as
brutal as any tyrannt, where Democracy means you do what your told and
vote for who you are told to vote for. We can talk until we are blue
to these people but until they tire of Hamas leadership it is a futile
effort.

As for my views I am quite open about them and always have been. I
have refrained from off topic discussions as there are better places
for such. Just in case anybody is wondering.

My understanding of DD is simple. Instead of representives it is the
next step in Democracy. It where the people themselves vote on
legislation and introduce legislation. I don't feel that you can
replace the President/Prime minister since there are times of crisis
when a rapid decision must be made. Communications and education are
approaching levels where such decisions could possibly be made but we
still need a figurehead to represent us with other nations and such.

I feel that representive Democracy is an obsolete concept. It was a
bridge to real Democracy created in a time and age where literacy
rates were low, where information was in short supply to the general
public. The unwashed masses were not to be trusted to make decisions.
Today there are no unwashed masses to fear. Representive Democracies
have become vehicles for corruption. They represent money not people.

I find no value in Socialism or it's parent Marxism. I find them an
affront to all that is beautiful in humanity. Nothing but fancier
chains that you find with a king would bring you.  However that is a
decision to be made by the people of that nation. Given real and
honest Democracy people can make informed decisions for themselves and
promotion through this group of economic systems seems out of place.

I am a Texan. Not born in Texas but have lived here long enough to
claim the title. I am seriously considering Texas independence as a
viable option and likely option given the circumstances in the US at
this time. I am far from the fringes on this view. Many Texans are
seriously considering this path. The Governor of Texas has more than
hinted about this and took a major step by envoking the 10th
Amendment.  This however is a relivent topic to this list. Texas if it
leaves the US may well try DD.
I tend to be more of a Libertarian than anything else.  I eschew the
LIbertarian isolationist views and I do find the Gov to be necessary
for many functions, so I don't follow many Libertarian planks.

I see the opportunity to fight for direct Democracy in nations
switching to Democracy or emerging. Established Democracies really
need a good example and pattern. It is also a chance to make mistakes.
There are many things that need to be worked out, some of which will
not rear their heads until it's actually tried in the real world in a
decent sized nation. A working and thriving DD is the best possible
incentive for the rest of the world to adopt such. Until there is one
established Democracies and their populations will be difficult to
convince to switch to such a government.

If I am not in step with this group I'll go my own way and attempt to
advance my ideas through a different medium. I joined this group, you
didn't join me. This is who I am and what I believe. If my views of DD
are consistant with the groups lets get to work and quit all this
bickering about a hopeless cause.


On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Bruce Eggum <bruce.eggum(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Dan,
>
> I appreciate this post, it clarifies your position a bit. It also brings
> "democracy" into focus.
>
> You state; “Other folks hate Jews and every effort I've made to show Jews as
> just humans in the past has fallen on deaf ears.”
>
> Perhaps this view is a problem. To my knowledge WDDM has not advocated
> “hating Jews” nor any group. If I talk about Israel, I am speaking of a land
> mass governed by the Israel government. I am not speaking of Jewish people
> or religion. Democracy implies many things including equal rights, liberty,
> freedoms of speech, thought, action, vocation, movement, etc. A Constitution
> declares these principles.
>
> The present Israel government claims to be “democratic,” yet the Israel
> government expels people from its land, restricts people’s rights based on
> their religion. [Wikipedia] “Israel was founded to provide a national home,
> safe from persecution, to the Jewish people. Although Israeli law explicitly
> grants equal civil rights to all citizens regardless of religion, ethnicity,
> or other heritage, it gives preferential treatment in certain aspects to
> individuals who fall within the criteria mandated by the Law of Return.”
>
> Then you state; “Genetically the Palestinians and Israelis are the same
> people.” If this is so, a single democratic state would allow all
> [Palestinians, Jews and others] to live together on the same land mass.
>
> It appears to me the Israel government desires to form a theocracy and
> increase its land mass to that of the time of Moses. I think this is
> unrealistic and very undemocratic. Again, it is “government” which is not
> “democratic” and not in “the peoples control” that is the problem. Israel
> government is no more managed by the people or it's constitution than USA
> government is managed by the people. That is why Direct Democracy is being
> advocated by this group.
>
> I think we have much work demanding "democracy" be a part of our lives and
> world. Perhaps we can use this issue to expand on how to accomplish it.
> Again, thanks for this post.  All the Best, Bruce
>
>  Dan said; "In my opinion Israel has been remarkable in it's
>
> tolerance. If you want to debate who's land it is then we can spend
> pages deciding who's land it is. Genetically the Palistinians and
> Israelis are the same people. Palistine is a British creation so there
> was no Palistine to "invade". The land has been owned by successive
> empires going back thousands of years. Both groups were less than
> reasonable while the British were pulling out. If you support giving
> Palistine back  then how can you stand silent about Tibet?  You also
> must support the removal of Europeans, Asians and Africans from the
> Americas, the removal of Muslims from Eastern Europe, and so on.  The
> whole mess is a web of issues, a conflict of cultures, international
> politics. Getting into is does what to promote Democracy of any kind?
> Nothing. It is a dive into a pool of slime and any effort just gets
> you slimed no matter which side you take. Israel today is the same
> people divided by religion and culture not an issue of Democracy. I
> don't think you can solve any such issues until you resolve the
> conflicts first. Do that and Democracy would be easy to achieve."
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Dan Smith <draciron(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> > Marxism isn't Democracy, Marxism puts far too much power in the hands
> > of too few people. Democracy's goal is the opposite to put power in
> > the hands of the people. The stated goal of Marxism is power for the
> > "workers" and sharing of resources, however it is the enforced sharing
> > of resources that strips the power away from people. It is the
> > leveling of people to the lowest common denominator that strips power
> > away from people. People are not born with equal skills, needs or
> > wants. Democracy is about opportunity, Marxism is about equality and
> > uniformity.
> >
> > The Kibbutzs are community efforts. They exist in a Democratic society
> > rather than replace it. They performed an important role in Israel and
> > as much as I despise Socialism such communities would be helpful in
> > places like America to avoid welfare type solutions. As a place for
> > people starting out or who fall on hard times they are an excellent
> > refuge. Typically in Israeli society the core of the population in
> > Kibbutzs are young people who typically spend a few years at the
> > Kibbutz then move out to Capitalistic society. I don't claim to be an
> > expert on Israel so perhaps I am not fully understanding the role they
> > play in Israel's society.
> >
> > I don't see how name calling and the imflaming of differences is
> > productive to the discussion. The post I responded too was clearly an
> > attack on Jews, a product of the "Zionist" compspiracy theorists and a
> > magnet for getting the group labeled as Nazis. If labeled as such then
> > anything we attempt to accomplish will be drenched in the stench of
> > those posts.
> >
> > I am rather new to this group, if being labeled as Nazis is fine you
> > guys fine I'll leave the list and dissassociate with the group. You
> > will alienate many future members by posting such attacks on Jews. I
> > don't even see it as an attractive target even if you take the hate
> > Israel tact, compared to what China is doing to Tibetens, the way
> > China is crushing the Democracy movement in China the worst
> > accusations possible against Israel are at best petty compared to the
> > actions of China for example. There are many other places where
> > Democracy is being crushed brutally with body counts that far exceed
> > the worst misconstrued figures in Israel.Personally I have zero
> > sympathy for a group that danced in the streets upon the news of 9-11.
> > A group that has autonomy and who merely needed to cease firing
> > rockets into Israel to avoid the latest violence. A group that
> > celibrates nut jobs blowing up busses full of women and children,
> > gives them heroes funerals.  How is such actions productive for a
> > Democracy. That is simple tyranny.  All the shouting in the world
> > isn't going to change my opinion nor draw my support for Palistinians.
> > The actions of Palisitinians who are who first brought us terrorism.
> > The group who started the plane hijackings, who blew up Europeans for
> > the sin of being Europeans, who hijacked boats, attacked airports.
> > This is a discredited group who's actions in most nations would have
> > gotten them wiped out. They started doing what they are doing in the
> > US if the Government didn't take them out the people would gather
> > together and do it.  In my opinion Israel has been remarkable in it's
> > tolerance. If you want to debate who's land it is then we can spend
> > pages deciding who's land it is. Genetically the Palistinians and
> > Israelis are the same people. Palistine is a British creation so there
> > was no Palistine to "invade". The land has been owned by successive
> > empires going back thousands of years. Both groups were less than
> > reasonable while the British were pulling out. If you support giving
> > Palistine back  then how can you stand silent about Tibet?  You also
> > must support the removal of Europeans, Asians and Africans from the
> > Americas, the removal of Muslims from Eastern Europe, and so on.  The
> > whole mess is a web of issues, a conflict of cultures, international
> > politics. Getting into is does what to promote Democracy of any kind?
> > Nothing. It is a dive into a pool of slime and any effort just gets
> > you slimed no matter which side you take. Israel today is the same
> > people divided by religion and culture not an issue of Democracy. I
> > don't think you can solve any such issues until you resolve the
> > conflicts first. Do that and Democracy would be easy to achieve.
> >
> > Other folks hate Jews and every effort I've made to show Jews as just
> > humans in the past has fallen on deaf ears.  I don't believe there is
> > some huge conspiracy of Jewish bankers to control the world. There are
> > no UN cattle cars with shackles installed in the US or other such
> > bizarre paranoia.  Nothing I say will change their minds. Muslims have
> > been told they are traitors to their religion should they not be
> > against Israel. Nothing I say is going to change their minds. Even if
> > they agreed with me the potential risks including possibly being
> > killed in some nations for dissenting against their religious leaders
> > means they can't even say they agree even if they do. At best they
> > will be ostricized, denied government jobs and far worse can happen to
> > a Muslim living in a Muslim nation who supports Israel.
> >
> > So again we cannot even have an honest world wide debate on the issue
> > without putting any members we have in such nations in potential
> > danger. To me it is a divise issue that will just cost the movement
> > membership, exhaust our resources, be used in Western nations as a
> > method to discredit our efforts.
> >
> > You have NOT addressed any of these issues I've repeatedly raised. I
> > say the whole topic is a land mine. Nothing good can come of raising
> > it.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Georges Metanomski <zgmet(at)yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > > "I spit in your face" may appear offensive and not
> > > pertinent to DD. Especially to supporters of the recent
> > > neo nazi harangues.
> > >
> > > Actually it's the first historical DD resolution,
> > > at least the first one I came across.
> > >
> > > In
> > > http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/POLITICS/shadow_eng.html
> > > I present the kibbutzim as the only truly DD social
> > > group in the history.
> > >
> > > I have joined a kibbutz at age of 13 in Mila str. Warsaw
> > > Ghetto.
> > >
> > > Mila str. 18 in Warsaw Ghetto is better known as the
> > > QG of the Uprising, but it was the site of a
> > > HaShomer HaTzair marxist kibbutz positing the global,
> > > international, secular DD, whose secretary was
> > > Mordechai Anielewicz. The members dreamt about a new
> > > human world, knowing that they will never see it, that
> > > they had a few months to live and that the only option
> > > left was their first historic DD decision - to follow
> > > Mordechai's call to die upright SPITTING IN THEIR FACE
> > > (see Appendix).
> > >
> > > Georges.
> > > =====================>> > Appendix "I SPIT IN YOUR FACE".
> > >
> > > "I spit in your face" is a historic quotation,
> > > which I endeavored to make my motto under certain
> > > circumstances. Actually, Mordechai Anielewicz did
> > > not invent it, calling Ghetto inmates to die
> > > upright, spitting morally in the face of deathsmen
> > > who perpetrated the Holocaust of 6 million Jews,
> > > 10 million Christians, 1900 Catholic priests,
> > > innumerable Gipsies, Gays, Handicapped ...
> > > and entered the Ghetto to send the few survivors
> > > to gas.
> > >
> > > The original "Germans, I spit in your face" was
> > > uttered by Warsaw Mayor Starzynski in his last
> > > speech on the day of Warsaw surrender at the
> > > end of September 1939. I heard it and recall
> > > exactly these words, but only vaguely the rest,
> > > which was something like: "To morrow you will
> > > enter my office and find me sitting behind
> > > my desk. Don't expect me to stand up and cede
> > > you my place. It will stay vacant after you
> > > pull me out by force. You will torture me and
> > > try to make me scream excuses and implore your
> > > pardon. You may succeed, yet it won't be me,
> > > but a piece of lacerated flesh. These here
> > > are my last words and they will stay so in
> > > history: "Germans, I spit in your face".