| From: | "Bruce Eggum" <bruceeggum(at)gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date: | Thu, 8 May 2008 18:31:58 -0500 |
| Subject: | Re: [WDDM] Regarding the social network site |
It is really how the community "decides" to do things which is "direct democracy".
WDDM can offer examples and information about all these different ways, but the community must choose it's way which may be a combination of these or none of the above. We are not to decide this is THE way, simply exemplify these are some ways which are being used. Georges model lacks the initial steps to accomplish his suggested way.
RE Kibbutz, they are "evolving" and followed what we knew as "tribal ways" many many years ago. They too will "evolve" perhaps discarding some of the good ways as we did.
There are some aspects which could be utilized such as cooperatives. However, the dynamics of decision making leaves the same old problems of power. "Group" or large family's may control decisions. The psychological damage is unnecessary. Than too, Kibbutz are moving toward capitalistic ways unfortunately, as a more social method could be better. Bruce
Children were brought up communally in age groups, away from their parents. One age group would progress from creche to nursery to school and so on, living together during the week and seeing their parents, and perhaps living with them, only at weekends.
This may have freed both parents for work and defence in the initial struggle for survival. But the practice was continued when successful, possibly to free women for work and so increase production. But it was done at the expense of the family.
Of any group in the country, the kibbutz children consequently showed the highest incidence of mental problems. The kibbutzim have had to backtrack and now give their children a more normal and strengthening family-life experience with their parents.
Kibbutzim now own and operate factories, hotels and restaurants, and much else. Degania, for example, has a factory with an annual turnover of about USD 15 million which provides roughly 75 per cent of its income. {KIB 02}
And kibbutzim are successful. Three per cent of Israel's population, about 125,000 people, live in 270 kibbutzim ranging in size from say 200 to 2,000 members. They produce something like 50 per cent of Israel's agricultural produce and about 9 per cent of its industrial goods.
All are equal regardless of the work done and all share equally in the work to be done, the available services and the democratic management of the kibbutz.
Decisions are made jointly by the General Assembly of all kibbutz members. The General Assembly decides policy and allocates responsibilities (work) to individual members by electing managers and assigning work.
One member could, for example, be given responsibility for work scheduling and for allocating work to individual members. Such work in larger kibbutzim could also be handled by committees whose members are also elected by the General Assembly, the chairperson often doing this work full time.
Members occupy their role for a limited period, say one or two years, often full time in larger kibbutzim, and jobs (roles) are rotated.
The functions covered in such ways are the usual ones found in any enterprise or community and can vary from kibbutz to kibbutz. Finance, transport, health, short-term and long-term planning, social and cultural activities, communal dining, laundry, creche facilities, and so on.
Decision-taking by the General Assembly can involve heated argument, infighting between factions and marshalling of support. Suppose money is limited, a tractor has to be bought and only one child can be sent to study at university, both fees and maintenance being required. One child out of two and your child is one of the two. Such problems can prove very divisive within such a close community.
The success of the kibbutzim became a byword in Israel. Agriculture in Israel was more capital intensive than in the USA. While urban life was tough and insecure in a taxing climate, kibbutz members had a secure and high standard of living and a good quality of life.
Life on a prosperous kibbutz includes its cultural centre or concert hall, use of swimming pool and tennis courts, film shows, lectures and concerts. <2>
As an open-air swimming pool was replaced by an even bigger one, as a new concert hall was built, as factories were started and outside labour was employed, the rest of Israel saw them as living in a 'paradise on earth', as a 'community of millionaires'. And there are many struggling Israelis who see kibbutz wealth and life-style as the result of state handouts.
How come? And what does the future hold? So let us look in a little more detail at what actually happened.
The kibbutzim were backed and supported by world-wide Jewish communities. Much if not most of the money was channelled through the Jewish Agency (Sochnut) which financed, or else provided, water supplies, electric power, roads and capital for land (when required), housing, equipment, machinery, livestock.
Here are some simple figures {KIB 04}:
Take agriculture. Take the year 1975. In that year alone farmers received USD 130 million <3> in unlinked loans, about 83 per cent of the total investment in agriculture. 'A good part of these loans were given by the Jewish Agency, for the traditional 50 years at 2 per cent, unlinked of course, and with a grace period <4> of 20 years'.
At Israeli inflation rates of about 40 per cent each year all the loans mentioned are practically wiped out in seven years, never mind 50 years. The loans were, for all practical purposes, free gifts to agricultural settlements <5>.
Kibbutzim received unlinked fifty-year loans with repayment starting after ten or twenty years. At interest rates far below rate of inflation, the amounts being paid back to the Sochnut were negligible compared with the loans received, in effect a free gift.
The success and wealth of kibbutzim resulted from large capital sums provided without strings by world-wide Jewish communities at considerable hardship to the communities.
No wonder the riches and success of the kibbutzim and of kibbutznicks (kibbutz members) became a byword in Israel. Living a good life in paradise on earth, that is how the rest of Israel saw them.
http://www.solhaam.org/articles/kibbut.html
> On the WDDM site alone there are six alternative================
> definitions of DD -
>
> 1. DD is Initiative and Binding Referendum and
> Recalls
> 2. DD is a socio-political structure
> concentrating the Legislation directly and
> exclusively in the hands of people
> 3. DD is the system currently used in
> Switzerland
> 4. DD recognises that the Voters are the
> employers and Politicians are the employees
> 5, Direct democracy - Wherein sovereignty is
> vested directly in the people, who, in exercise of
> their inalienable right to self-determination and
> under universal suffrage, determine the structure
> and functioning of their own governance.
> 6. Direct Democracy is where the people have a
> say in governance directly without the intermediary
> of one or more political parties
G:
True, WDDM does not know what it's talking about.
For the simple reason that DD is too general to admit
an intensional definition.
see "DEFINITIONS" in
http://findgeorges.com/ROOT/WRITINGS/ESSAYS/definitions.html
Extensional definition enumerates Athens and Kibbutzim
as sharing the 3 function structure: 1.Initiative,
2.Consensus building Debate and 3.Resolution upon
consensus reaching a threshold.
================
>================
> Now in your opinion Georges, DD = Kibbutzism.
G:
It's not my "opinion", but the rigorous extensional
definition, after eliminating Athens as elitary DD,
or Oligarchy.
===============
> That makes seven definitions. And that's from just==============
> one site. From just seven people.
G:
Six blablablas and one rigorous extensional
definition.
===============
> With regards to the site mentioned. I said it was=================
> not convincing. I did not infer a compliment and I
> made no attempt to criticise. I merely said it was
> not convincing.
G:
You did not understand. I felt it as a compliment
that my essay does not convince YOU.
=================
> I see the governance of Israel is not based on=================
> kibbutzism.
G:
Nor is the governance of Tombuctu.
It's the governance of the Kibbutzim that is
structured as DD.
================
> I have just perused wikipedia's entry on================
> kibbutzism. I would not consider kibbutzism an
> outstanding success. I'm glad I wasn't raised in
> such a system.
G:
One can see that you were not. And the depth of your
Wikipedia knowledge and science is impressing.
My 10 years experience of life and problems of
Kibbutzim don't count in comparison.
I had to quit it for reasons irrelevant to the present
context. Since then I live as an alien among cruel,
stupid predators.
================
> 'My version' of DD by the way, is no 5.================
>
> Now Georges, you're free to disagree.
G:
I can neither agree, nor disagree, as your Nr 5,
being intensional, is neither right nor wrong, neither
true nor false, but simply a meaningless chain of
characters.
(see above).
Ships passing in the night. We'd better leave it at
that.
Georges.
================