Re: [WDDM] Repeted answer to Antonio

[Giorgio Menon <giorgio.menon(at)pd.infn.it>]

Antonio Rossin wrote:

>   has the human language the intrinsic capacity
> of expressing the *objective* reality?  My opinion is a firm NO, it
> has no such
> capacity.


Of course, Antonio. Languages are vehicles belonging to cultures.
Wherever a culture likes to go, language will drive it there. Reality,
in this sense, is only there where language goes. It was the Renaissance
(the elites of merchants and bankers ruling that era, actually, starting
with the powerful de' Medici that gained the power in Florence after the
Revolta de' Ciompi) that gave birth to the idea that mathematics as
language could help their need to control and expand the market. Since
then maths (science in general), power and exploitation (thanks to
technology) have played a keyrole to the point that we're consuming 120%
of the available resources. But, oh, infinity exists, astrophysicists
say. Yes, languages sometimes don't describe what's there rather give
false impressions.


> > > > History has always shown just one face of democracy, no matter
> > > > how you like to write it. It's about 2500 years that the elites are
> > > > "democratically" ruling the people.
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't follow you, here. The term for the elites ruling the people
> > > is oligarchy,
> > > and not "democracy". Period.
> >
> >
> > Read on Wiki:
> > "All the Athenian citizens were eligible to speak and vote in the
> > Assembly, which set the
> > laws of the city-state, but neither political rights, nor
> > citizenship, were granted to women
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women>, slaves
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaves>, or
> > metics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metics>.  Of the 250,000
> > inhabitants only some
> > 30,000 on average were citizens. Of those 30,000 perhaps 5,000 might
> > regularly attend
> > one or more meetings of the popular Assembly."
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
> >
> > Are you trying to convince me that 5,000 citizens out of 250,000 is
> > not an elite?
>
>
> This is an old question, rather a quarrel, in this list.  I'm quite
> prepared tp
> answer it.   ;-)
>
> If we have a group of, say,  5,000 members who want to give themselves
> democratic rules for processing their own affairs, that id no elite but a
> democratic group.
> If you take this 5,000 people democratic group and insert it into a
> larger,
> say, 300,000 people collectivity and the 5,000 want to implement their
> "democratic rules, they become an elite who want to set up oligarchy.


Well, that's how democracy has always been. Again, i'm not interested in
what could have happened, but in what has really happened.
I call cat a cat. Democracy is an elite ruling over the great majority
of the people. Not differently from a king, a Democratically elected
President of a Democratic Republic does all is his power to increase the
elites' power and wealth while cares very little about the lower
classes, provided that they don't cause too many troubles.

> > If i correctly uderstand your words you're picturing out a future
> > situation where
> > no oil is available and we all will be forced to use the pushbike.
> > Such future can't
> > disturb me, as i like riding my bike. My question: given that we know
> > that sooner
> > or later the oil will end, why alternative solutions haven't been
> > studied and planned? What power do common people have to decide to
> > switch, for instance, from oil to
> > solar?  No power is my answer. They can only hope that oil companies,
> > fearing the
> > end of their lucrative business, try to start a new game. Hydrogen
> > power, for example.
> > Oil multinationals have been responsible for decades of censorship
> > and sabotage
> > against new projects undermining their wealth while promoting oil
> > consumptions.
> > SUVdocet. "each gallon of gasoline burned pumps 28 pounds of CO2 into
> > the
> > atmosphere, the average car emits about 63 tons of CO2 over its
> > lifetime — and
> > the average SUV or pickup emits around 82 tons.
> > In comparison: America’s automobiles produce more global warming
> > pollution
> > than all the vehicles, power plants, and factories in Great Britain
> > combined."
> > http://www.sierraclub.org/globalwarming/factsheets/BiggestStep_05.pdf
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Giorgio
> Ok., but the overall structure remains a fractal, and there are
> different levels
> of solution, and any one is due to solve the problem at one's own level.
> Of course, we common pedestrians cannot study and plan and impose a
> solution at the "Seven Sisters" logical level.  But each one of us can
> adopt
> a solution at one's own level: in this case,  more bicycle and less cars.
> BTW, are you following the discussion at the worldcit(at)googlegroups.com
> mailing list?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> antonio

The possible solutions you are talking about have to fight against the
ruling culture that wants smart people own a fast, powerful, big car. As
long as people keep receiving thousands of messages a day with this
exact same meaning,  i think your proposal more bicycles and less cars
will never been considered.
That's what communication is for: trying to convince people. The elites
are immensely more communicative that we are, and this is the real
problem. We don't have access to the media, they own them: they
democratically bought them. We could have done it, but we didn't. Our
fault, no?

Regards

Giorgio

PS I've never visited that site, but you've given me a good hint