Re: [WDDM] ATD 200705-02 - Albano

[Albano <cordei(at)ccr.jussieu.fr>]

Well, we can stay at this point. But I must say that, in fact, it is not
only the great amount of of informed, thinking and participating-minded
citizens that is necessary but also some conditions of receptiveness of
this people.They must be free of choosing other activities than
politics. Therefore giving confidence to others... so reducing poltical
acitivity to the choice of these representatives.
Secondly, you talk about a "democratic system of governance". The word
"governance" means that there is not certainty in the results of
aspecified politics. You touch some factors you think that they levers,
but you are not sure. It is true that if we believe that politics
imaginated by political representatives can have the waited results, we
are in a totalitarian system. The democracy is nearer to the "black box"
(you act at the entrance but nobody knows what comes out) than to the
situation imaginated in a totalitarian system
Albano


lpc1998 a écrit :
> Hi Albano,
>
> Thank you for your reply.
>
> You are right that, democracy requires a substantial majority
> of informed, thinking and participating citizens to be viable, and
> unfortunately the common people like us are too bogged down with the
> demands of work, family and private lives. Therefore, a democratic
> system of governance to be relevant to the ordinary people must take
> this into account.
>
> Eric Lim (lpc1998)
>
>
>
> */Albano <cordei(at)ccr.jussieu.fr>/* wrote:
>
>     I'll like to reply as it will be, but these days I have not so
>     much time
>     to, and I'm sorry, because it could be an occasion to develop ideas
>     concerning democracy.
>     Jean Paul Sartre said once that "Liberty doesn't existe, what is
>     existing is the fight to Liberty". Liberty exists by the fact we
>     fight
>     for. And it is "inside" this fight that Liberty can exist. But by
>     itself
>     it is not existing.
>     So it goes with democracy. It appears "behind" the fight for it.
>     But we
>     can perfect the "real existing democracy" (as un famous east german
>     economist said about "real existing socialism").
>     Nowadays the main menace coming the new right wing tendencies in
>     some of
>     the developped countries and "democratic dictatorships" in the South
>     countries is that they are trying (and they believe it could be
>     possible), by differents means of "opinion building" to ensure
>     systematic success in elections.
>     In almost all societies ringt wing opinion is in structurally in
>     majority, but the difference is not a wide one. Some 5 to 10% people
>     makes the difference. And this people can be influenced by controlled
>     mass media. The mass media, controlled by great economic interests,
>     has the possibility of shifting 5 to 10% of the electors.
>     This works because the all-around the world electoral system is
>     representative. The electoral dispute, as some colleagues said in
>     this
>     list of discussion, is a dispute among elites in competition for
>     taking
>     power of all-nation decisions.The power of decision must be
>     shared. Part
>     for representative democracy, but in a function of a referee. The
>     deliberatory process would be
>     the function of participatory democracy....but you must have a large
>     amount of politized citizens able to judge about collective affairs...
>     Albano C.
>
>     lpc1998 a écrit :
>     > Dear PVR, Mark, Filia, Annette & Albano,
>     >
>     > Annette, many thanks for your kind words.
>     >
>     > It is good you are conversant with the ways of the power elites. It
>     > will come in handy when we discuss the strategies in dealing with
>     > them. For the time being, let us look into the WDDM itself and see
>     > whether we could find a way to enhance its contribution to true
>     democracy.
>     >
>     > Albano, your cautioning is timely. I have appended it below for the
>     > convenience of readers since it was written in another email.
>     >
>     > Yes, as far as we know there has never been a true democracy,
>     except,
>     > perhaps, the one in Athens 2,600 years, but this does not mean
>     we have
>     > to surrender to false democracy. We are only a part of the
>     continuum
>     > of people who have been inspired by the spirit of democracy
>     since its
>     > Athenian birth.
>     >
>     > You are also right that we should not go for perfect true
>     democracy.
>     > After all, very little things in the real world are perfect.
>     >
>     > However, it is important that we do not confuse imperfect true
>     > democracy with false democracy, with the latter brimming with
>     > cheating, oppression, deceits, dishonesty, lies or half or
>     distorted
>     > truths while with the former, democracy is operating under less
>     than
>     > ideal conditions.
>     >
>     > The so-called "Representative Democracy" as we know it is false
>     > democracy because as you have said elsewhere it is not
>     democratic or
>     > ever meant to be. Moreover, while the representatives, when in
>     > offfice, are representatives who rule in the name of the people,
>     they
>     > are often the representatives of somebody else, and are seldom the
>     > representatives of the people who have supposedly elected them
>     to office.
>     >
>     > What do you think is the first step we in WDDM could now take in
>     the
>     > directon of true democracy?
>     >
>     > Eric Lim (lpc1998)
>     >
>     >
>     > =============================================
>     >
>     >
>     > I continue to be surprised. Let's be simply realistic. In the
>     world UN
>     > counted some 40 or 50% of the countries ruled by democracies. But no
>     > one
>     > is a true democracy and a true democracy never existed. There
>     are only
>     > false democracies or, if you prefer, imperfect democracies .But
>     > imperfect democracy is the one that is possible. Talking about "true
>     > democracy" is supposing it is possible to achieve an organisation of
>     > the
>     > society where citizens use the sovereign powers and arrive at
>     solutions
>     > acceptable for all. We must avoid that. There must be
>     confrontation and
>     > regulated conflits, and the result is not harmony. Let's only create
>     > the
>     > conditions for peace and justice (fair sharing of richness) and ....
>     > long life to dissensus.
>     >
>     > Democracy is not only proceedings but also a list of values. These
>     > values are not "harmonious". In fact ther must be couples of
>     > contradictory values, the defenders of one term of a couple of
>     values
>     > contest the defenders of the second term. The regulation is to
>     > maintain civic ways of debate.
>     > Albano Cordeiro