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00927: Re: [WDDM] Re: Toward a WDDM Charter
From: |
Antonio Rossin <rossin(at)tin.it> |
Date: |
Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:22:19 +0100 |
Subject: |
Re: [WDDM] Re: Toward a WDDM Charter |
Hi,
Communication problems disappear as soon as we want to
discuss them.
In this case, I read a subject line in the header of a message
thread,
posted by you Bruce:
"Subject: Re: Toward a WDDM Charter"
In the text of your messages, I understand that you want to state
out
(that you have in mind) a constitution-like chart to organize
WDDM
(I mean, an official document to be accepted by general
consent)
and I added: "(please Bruce correct me if I were
wrong)"
Now you seem to affirm that I have been wrong. If so, I
apologize:
but then, please explain in clear details what you have in mind
about
organizing WDDM, or what idea you want to introduce.
Even more specifically, please answer: "What has it the
current
WDDM activity, which you dislike to?"
Regards,
antonio
At 18:01 -0600 14-01-2007, Bruce Eggum wrote:
Dear Antonio,
We have a serious communication problem,
be it language or meaning of words I don't know how to resolve it as I
do not know how you perceive it.. I would like to understand your
conception of charter. Please also inform me how you deducted that I
want to make a "a charter to organize Democracy World Wide, that
is "democracy" all over the world". I have never
stated that intent, nor have I ever introduced such an idea.
Bruce
5. According with 4., a clear
distinction should be made
between a World Wide Democracy, and our
little group of
Democracy activists having been
registered as such at Athens
Delphi a six years over ago as a Movement
for a World Wide
Democracy. What must be quite clear
to all, it is that the
Charter which Bruce is minding of (please
Bruce correct me
if I were wrong) it is a charter to
organize Democracy World
Wide, that is "democracy"
all over the world and not a
charter to help our little movement of
democracy activists --
who are all doing their best as democracy
volunteers.
At the very least, I no not feel in need
of any such Bruce's
mastery guideline to do what I'm doing
currently, nor I can
imagine Mirek or Bernard being in need of
it to do in any
better way what they're already doing
currently (please
Mirek and Bernard correct me if I were
wrong);
On 1/14/07,Antonio Rossin wrote:
Hi,
from the post quoted below, it emerges that:
1. the WDDM group of democracy activists has no
charter
still, such as what Bruce advocates so
insistently;
2. Nevertheless, the group membership has grown up
in time.
Those who entered the WDDM membership did not need
of
any Charter to do it, but the original FDs that expose
WDDM's
aims have been enough;
3. WDDM is doing a great deal of work, mostly thanks
to
Mirek, by storing lots and lots of democracy documents
and
showing them to everybody who wants to apply
democracy.
By doing so, all the WDDM's work is done;
4. No one bans Bruce from designing a Democracy
charter,
which will be obviously stored by Mirek together with all
other
relevant documents. It will be Bruce's suggestion for any
one
who needs of a draft for organizing one's country
politically;
5. According with 4., a clear distinction should be
made
between a World Wide Democracy, and our little group
of
Democracy activists having been registered as such at
Athens
Delphi a six years over ago as a Movement for a World
Wide
Democracy. What must be quite clear to all, it is
that the
Charter which Bruce is minding of (please Bruce correct
me
if I were wrong) it is a charter to organize Democracy
World
Wide, that is "democracy" all over the the
world and not a
charter to help our little movement of democracy activists
--
who are all doing their best as democracy
volunteers.
At the very least, I no not feel in need of any such
Bruce's
mastery guideline to do what I'm doing currently, nor I
can
imagine Mirek or Bernard being in need of it to do in
any
better way what they're already doing currently
(please
Mirek and Bernard correct me if I were
wrong);
6. Finally, currently there is plenty of Democracy
movements
who want to state out a Democracy Charter -- see for
instance
"The Community of World Citizens" which
movement most of
us are members of too, at <worldcit(at)googlegroups.com>
That is, an official World Wide Democracy Charter, more
than
democratically unfair if presented as a Constitutional
Charter --
and not as the internal bureaucratic guideline of a small
group
of democracy activists -- would look like a competitive
challenge
to the others. I mean, Bruce's wanted charter would
become a
competitive tool for disuniting Democracy, rather than to
unite
it world wide.
any comments?
antonio
PS.
I add worldcit(at)googlegroups.com
(the Community of World
Citizens) mailing list to Bruce's addresses as he seems
to
have missed it.
.
At 18:36 -0600 13-01-2007, Bruce Eggum wrote:
Bruce responds to Bernards post within
the post.
Bernard comments:
I have read this numerous times, and whilst I can answer
each question, doing so implies one has agreed that it
is the right way forward, I do not for several reasons.
You were given a remit, you have done it well, but I also
have to agree with Ted's comment - 'Glutton for
punishment'<grin>
I recognise the symptoms of taking a challenge, I
have the same problem ditto with the glutton (see email to
Antonio).
1) If one looks at the responses so far, one can get the
picture of what will happen if there is agreement for an
organisation - it will be left to the executive.
[BE] That is why a WDDM Charter is needed. It would take
away and limit power to individuals, by placing powers on the members.
A Board could do the administrative duties assigned it, develop policy
etc. which would than be approved by referendum. As it is, members
have no control what so ever. Even the election system of the
original WDDM has been lost.
Anyone know how political parties start? (don't answer
that).
[BE] Yes I will. They are factions of people that join
together their way. Again, this type behavior can be eliminated with a
Charter, (banishing all political involvement)
That prompts another thought - how many members are
there?
Forty seven (47) http://www.world-wide-democracy.net/Wiki/MemberPages
It's only a little thing, but indicative - I read in one
posting that Bruce was a co-moderator, did I miss the posting that
asked the group approval?
[BE] Yes you did miss the posting(s) Bernard. A call went
out to all WDDM members for volunteers to moderate the WDDM emails. A
moderator is neccessary to eliminate spam etc. All email must
be read, approved, and re-emailed to the WDDM email system. Mirek who
is very busy any way, was moving, setting up a new home etc. Nobody
else volunteered. If I had not volunteered, there would have
been approximately two months with none or sporadic WDDM email. Mirek
is doing much more than he originally intended. This is because there
are so few "active" members willing to share the work. This
is another reason for a Charter. Responsibilities could be developed
(secretary, treasurer etc.) than people could volunteer and be
accepted by referendum. Than reports could be made and we could be
aware of costs, revenue needed, future needs, participate in what is
on the site, develop methods to promote direct democracy etc.
2) If it is decided to have an organization, the power
will be in the executive, it is inevitable, it is the reason why
executive's exist.
[BE] No, there are presidents, or chairpersons, or
spokespersons of card clubs and all sorts of "groups" which
are organized with the members in mind. [these are referred to as
organization's]
(Bernard)3) It will need money, which then shows the
failure to recognise where the real power is in the world,
politicians ego's cover up who pulls their strings, and this
organisation wants to join them !!!!
[BE] Certainly money is needed. Do you think the webspace,
server(s), computer(s) necessary software, technical assistance,
telephone, web-access, and other costs in running the present WDDM are
all free-bees? A few thousand at least is needed just for WDDM to
exist as it is.
(Bernard continues) The research I have been doing
indicates we are entering a phase that will see the worlds finances
crashing, most likely this spring, WDDM.org would be dead before it
started.
Does anyone understand Risk Management?
[BE] I certainly am not an expert, but the first item in
risk management is to know your assets and liabilities, than be
responsible for them. Out of necessity we do this in our own lives, in
our family's and business's or suffer the [natural] consequences. This
is also necessary in any group of people. Thus to begin we need a
Charter so we can administrate WDDM. Than an inventory of assets and
liabilities as well as projected costs can be completed and we can
begin to take responsibility for our WDDM, be it a movement, club,
group, or even an organization. Unless WDDM gets organized it is
dead.
4) The strength of an association would be in the
members, and if the members do not have the guts to fight for
democracy, what are we doing this for anyway?
5) When did the members vote for an
organisation?
Regards
Bernard
[BE] WDDM has always been an organization, so you joined
an organization Bernard.
Although there has always been a play on words, calling
this Worldwide Direct Democracy Movement, instead of organization,
which it is by defined structure and calling the President a
"Spokesperson" instead of "President". Using
synonyms does not change the meaning.
Please note the founding documents. There is a
Coordinating Committee, Voting etc, This original draft document was
to be updated and defined, which we have been attempting to do for
years. The original coordinating committee made this the first order
of business.
WDDM Founding Docs:
http://tinyurl.com/y8c3j9
note top Bernard. You noted my misspelling (which I am a
bit careless about.) so I underlined the words which do not fit my USA
dictionary. We do have different spellings in different country's for
sure. I believe we can make it out though and that is the important
thing.
On 1/13/07,Bernard Clayson > wrote:
Mark and all,
I have read this numerous times, and whilst I can answer
each question, doing so implies one has agreed that it
is the right way forward, I do not for several reasons.
You were given a remit, you have done it well, but I also
have to agree with Ted's comment - 'Glutton for
punishment'<grin>
I recognise the symptoms of taking a challenge, I have the
same problem ditto with the glutton (see email to Antonio).
1) If one looks at the responses so far, one can get the
picture of what will happen if there is agreement for an organisation
- it will be left to the executive.
Anyone know how political parties start? (don't answer
that).
That prompts another thought - how many members are
there?
It's only a little thing, but indicative - I read in one
posting that Bruce was a co-moderator, did I miss the posting that
asked the group approval?
2) If it is decided to have an organisation, the power
will be in the executive, it is inevitable, it is the reason why
executive's exist.
3) It will need money, which then shows the failure to
recognise where the real power is in the world, politicians ego's
cover up who pulls their strings, and this organisation wants to join
them !!!!
The research I have been doing indicates we are entering a
phase that will see the worlds finances crashing, most likely this
spring, WDDM.org would be dead before it started.
Does anyone understand Risk Management?
4) The strength of an association would be in the
members, and if the members do not have the guts to fight for
democracy, what are we doing this for anyway?
5) When did the members vote for an organisation?
Regards
Bernard
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Antell, editor
CitizenPowerMagazine.net
To: wddm@world-wide-democracy.net
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:56 AM
Subject: [WDDM] Toward a WDDM Charter
Toward a WDDM Charter
To: WDDM
Membership
From: Mark Antell, editor
CitizenPowerMagazine.net
May I request that reviewers read this note completely before
responding? Thank you.
--
Bruce Eggum
Gresham Wisconsin, USA
http://www.doinggovernment.com/
Check out my Blog too
http://bruceeggum.blogster.com/
--
Bruce Eggum
Gresham Wisconsin, USA
Urge to Surge
http://tinyurl.com/yndynn
http://www.doinggovernment.com/
Check out my Blog too
http://bruceeggum.blogster.com/
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