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00745: [WDDM] Thoughts about ourdemocracy (and a general ramble)

From: s'ace <cjdegroot(at)orange.nl>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 21:05:46 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [WDDM] Thoughts about ourdemocracy (and a general ramble)

hi filia / mirek / pras et all,

on the point filia offers i add some:

a technical device can help to guarantee the perfect outcome in complex procedures as electionevents are;
to the modern technical device in the state of art solution on a net of technical "bookkeepers closing system" can guarantee: no fraud

what is a political system?
was there ever a political system?

if we accept the bottomline for a system:
"it, a system, offers without any doubt that what it was designed for"

is the human, the representative, the votee, the voter a part of the political system ...?
and if (yes), how can we add upon the educational level of the citizen within each human whatever role?

let me end up with a headline from mr. Kees Schuyt in the Volkskrant, freely translated:
"Queest for Binding, and also for Counterbinding arguments"
... an upload to social cohesion brings up a not-avoidable feeling-of-we, which wakes up contrapositions.
Senses for communitystrifes are delivered by public acceptance of "occult" complementary forces.

') counter binding arguments can be found in the profound "universal" design of the system

s' ace

nb.
what electional system can at the end be waterproof ...
* a human hand made only
* latter in combination with technical systems
* latter in combination with events once in 4 years
or latter in combination with a continious internet event (as your bankaccount fluctating your costs and profits)
* ... <bring it up>


Datum: 12/11/06 08:21 PM
Van: "Filia den Hollander" <holla(at)xs4all.nl>
Aan: "WDDM" <wddm@world-wide-democracy.net>
CC: "Arjen Kamphuis" <arjen(at)kmphs.com>
Onderwerp : [WDDM] Re to Mirek Kolar and Pras Anand: [WDDM] Thoughts about our
democracy (and a general ramble)


Hi Pras and Mirek,

I’d like to add something to the e-democracy discussion.

Electronic voting is a technical device, not a political system. Here in The
Netherlands it recently came to the surface that our voting computers are
open to fraud, and they have been removed (in the big cities) or replaced
(in the small cities).
It is also worthwhile to note that Ireland had refused a couple of years ago
to buy the electronic voting system manufactured by the Dutch. It wasn’t
transparent enough how the hardware was composed and the Dutch refused to
give that transparency.

This last information I have from Arjen Kamphuis (cc), who is up-to-date in
IT matters. The first was recently in the news broadcasts.


Kind regards,
Filia den Hollander




op 11-11-2006 23:53 schreef M. Kolar:

Pras Anand wrote:
marketplace operations which are aimed at creating a DD. The industry
buzzword is e-democracy and if (for example) you search google for
e-government and european commission I'm sure you'd find many well
placed ideas. These ideas have now flourished into examples all over the
I am afraid that a very large majority of efforts (initiated by industry
and governments) that you will find on the internet under the keyword of
e-government (and even e-democracy) are actually top-down measures to make the
functioning of the current representative governments better, it's about how
to
get the central decision made faster available to the citizens, and citizens
can comply with them online (various online filing systems).
But I agree, you can find also find some truly DD efforts there, and many of
the technical solutions from the above top-down approach can pave way for true
DD.


In the sense that people don't even know what to think often and just
say what they read, heard or saw on the television. Why would replacing
existing governments with people from the general public actually be a
good thing?
Experience with Citizen Juries, Wisdom Councils, etc. shows that even
such initially ignorant general public can make very good decisions if you
provide them with good information sources. They will educate themselves fast
if they know that they can change something, that their voice will be heard.

Mirek






"t(h)ree self one fo(u)r alll alll fo(u)r one self t(h)ree"


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