Dear All,
I have Stephen's consent to make public the relevant email exchanges among Filia, him and me. It can be found at the end of this email.
This is how this episode of Filia's accusations originated from:
There was a period of exchanges between Filia and Stephen arising from her plan to publish her Alternative EU Constitution, both cc me their emails.
===============================================
Then Filia made an urgent appeal:
| Date: |
Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:47:36 +0200 |
| Subject: |
Re: Neitzke and, what's more, Den Hollander |
| From: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| To: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
| CC: |
"Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
Hi both,
I’m having an urgent problem. Ken Kostyo, the constitutional expert lawyer who would review Jan Willem Sap’s first draft of an Alternative Peoples’ Constitution, turns out to be unreliable, i.e. I can’t make contact with him when I tell him that I need to meet him and that we have to get on. He just doesn’t reply or disappears off the earth and by now I’m far beyond anger (but still am frustrated). I have this desire to publish in a major French and a major Dutch newspaper our first draft of an Alternative EU Constitution about two weeks before these referendums take place (France: May 29th, Netherlands: June 1st). I can’t make any contacts with any of the newspapers (nor can Jeanne, who is much more well known in the art world and thus in the art editorial boards of newspapers, mediate for me or accompany me) for I’m not even close to a decent product yet.
Nor can I live up to my agreement with Jeanne. The first draft of an
Alternative EU Constitution will also be part of a letter exchange, i.e. Jeanne will send me an invitation to the Blue House (where the EU Constitution will have its nerve center), a public letter, and I will reply in another public, printed letter with our Alt. EU Constitution integral in it. There will be a chain of public, printed and sent around letters as part of Jeanne’s Blue House ―”House of Revolution”, in which political artists and political art projects are invited (inspired by the Casa Azul of Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera)― project. And the letter including the Alt. Eu Constitution will be both the official kick-off of Jeanne’s Blue House project and the official kick-off of “my” Constitution project.
It wasn’t before recent that I realised that the NPS Forum was about developing constitution.
Jiri gave me two tips of constitutional experts, one woman in Bratislava whom I know, another one in Prague whom I don’t know at all (nor does Jiri because someone
had tipped him). The Bratislava lady doesn’t reply and the Prague lady I’m preparing a letter for. I’m not sure if I should try to contact Victor Cuesta.
I really would like to publish our Alt. EU Constitution in newspapers. Franck Biancheri, as you may know form another email, has also offered to publish it in the Newropeans-Magazine.
Is there a way to help me out in this? It’s true, I don’t have the bend of mind ― or rather, I don’t have the training ― to understand juridical language. When I read it, I don’t fully comprehend its implications. Jan Willem had to explain to me the framework of his version (I did let him know however, that if a constitution of an area ―EU― is not democratic enough, I would certainly not want to participate in any EU army, i.e. they would certainly not have my loyalty. I forgot in what context I said this).
We needn’t make something which is perfect already ― just good and serious enough to have it published. Coincidentally I too,
when writing applications for funding, wrote that I expect this project to take at least two years.
One thing which Jan Willem did, was to quote parts of the current EU Constitution. He did that for strategy reasons, to make it harder for Convention members and juridical people to reject it.
Another point is also how radical an Alternative EU Constitution should be. Ken had pointed out that in some American constitution, they had designed many beautiful things in it, environmental protection etc., and that the judges simply created a different jurisprudence on top of it for it was too far off. On the other hand, if it’s really going to be a “Peoples’ Constitution”, then it can be exactly as radical as we want it.
Please find also the word attachment. It’s a report of a meeting of Ken and myself of September 1st, 2004. It was sent to “International-Democracy”; i.e. Bernard Clayson’s email list. I think Eric had received it then. The strategy part in it isn’t
really relevant anymore.
Good night. Thanks, Stephen, for all of your writings. I hope we can continue this and I do appreciate your dialectical explanations.
Speak to you soon,
Filia
_____________________________________________________
| From: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
| To: |
"Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com>, "Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| Subject: |
Re: Neitzke and, what's more, Den Hollander |
| Date: |
Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:02:36 -0600 |
Yikes --
I presumed, from the ways you've talked about the alt constitution project, Filia, that it was a much more mature product.
At this point, I would advise only naming and blocking out the Articles with suggested Section groups. Even this simple blocking needs more than a solo author, but, if you approach others with it being just a simple blocking project, you will surely get more volunteers than if you go for more.
With so few individuals participating, with so thin a consensus, provision writing should not be attempted. At least, I wouldn't.
Here's what I would do. This is all just an open suggestion.
I would go for a "comparison and contrast" presentation for publication that is as powerful and provocative as possible inside the short time available. We're looking at about 6 weeks before publication, right? I'd set four weeks for rough draft, two weeks for polishing. The polishing period should include rounding out with general observations, which should be only annotations until then. No telling how the written structures will suggest the observation and conclusions until the written structures are down on digital paper.
Let's see what explanatory products there are on the Internet. There must be overviews already done, meant to sell the proposed constitution to the public. The best we can find becomes the baseline against which the comparison and contrast will be written. We should avoid copyrighted overviews.
Then, we read all the blue-ribbon articles we can find that criticize the proposed constitution. We need to keep a careful biblio as we go. If such articles do not present suggestions for improvements, we should be able to shape the suggestions ourselves, always referring back to the baseline overview.
Of course, what we produce as a comparinson & contrast to the baseline overview does not have to be anything like the overview or the proposed EU constitution. I suspect that it will turn out radically unlike the overview. Afterall, the proposed constitution was written for the benefit of corporatism. The alt constitution will be for the benefit of the people.
Comments, please. We're burnin' daylight -- so to speak.
===============================================
| Date: |
Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:09:13 +0200 |
| Subject: |
Re: People's EU Constitution (can be skipped) |
| From: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| To: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net>, "Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
This is as far as I’ve got it.
I have to go now, but will be back later today.
Blue-ribbon = lawyers ?
Filia
Please read this. For completion of the project as we have it so far, I’ve added some things at the bottom.
What Jeanne and I, or at least I, need to do is to actually contact newspapers.
Victor Cuesta, if this is of interest to you, please reply ASAP. Same goes for Ms Jitka Smidova and Marian Zdeb. Please reply ASAP for then we know who can be of help and who can’t.
Stephen, yes, we have six weeks.
Kind regards,
Filia
===============================================
| Date: |
Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:28:28 -0800 (PST) |
| From: |
"lpc1998" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
| Subject: |
Alternative EU Constitution |
| To: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net>, "Filia" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
Filia & Stephen,
On Tue, Wed and Thu, I usually have very heavy work commitments. Sorry for not able to response earlier.
Stephen, if you were advising against presenting something purporting to be a complete Alternative EU Constitution, I think you are right. Simply because there is no enough time for such a massive task, even if there is already a team of competent and functioning people for the work.
Filia, if you were referring to the publication of the 19-page draft Alternative EU Constitution dated January 11th, 2005, version 01, by Jan Willem Sap & Filia den Hollander, then my opinion is that it is not ready for publication.It would attract a barrage of criticisms and ridicules or be a non-event.
In this connection, Stephen's suggestion for selected criticisms of the Draft EU Constitution and alternative proposals seems to be the only sensible and practical approach available to us.
More, the Jan-Filia alternative EU Constitution neither upholds the sovereignty of the people nor provides effective Citizens' Initiatives (citizens' law making, recalls, etc). These provisions are so fundamental to a People's Constitution. It is basically the same as the constitutions of the existing political systems, except perhaps with more declarative or decorative citizens' rights wriiten in it. Declarative or decorative because there are no specific provisions in the Constitution for the effective implementation of these rights, apart from the question whether some of the rights are implementable in the first place or if, implemented, would they be harmful to the people and country as a whole.
Best Regards
Eric
____________________________________________________
| Date: |
Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:21:49 +0200 |
| Subject: |
Re: Alternative EU Constitution |
| From: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| To: |
"Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com>, "Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
Dear Eric,
On this one is consensus: Jan Willem’s draft is not at all what it should be for exactly the same things you point out.
Thank you both. I gladly accept your help. Of the international network, would there be people you would recommend to join in?
Warm regards,
Filia
____________________________________________________
| From: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
| To: |
"lpc1998" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
| Subject: |
Re: Alt EU Constitution |
| Date: |
Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:55:08 -0600 |
[From Filia:]
> Blue-ribbon = lawyers ?
Blue Ribbon = Anyone whose name or title is recognized by large numbers of citizens, either as having produced good works or as having a high station in life. When they agree with your righteous cause, they give extra weight to your cause in the public's eye, making your cause more persuasive.
This is going back to the basics of classical rhetoric, which is simply public persuasion. It is using ethos -- noble character of the speaker -- as a significant part of persuading others that you and your cause are righteous. As long as your arguments are based in truth and ethical intent, this use of persuasive ethos is a part of classical, Aristotlean rhetoric. Of course, to be roundly effective, any ethos must be presented along with evidence (logos) and some element(s) that causes emotional sympathy (pathos) -- and the more sympathetic emotion, the better.
Of course, if any of your arguments are based in plausible falsehood and unethical intent, any such logos-ethos-pathos persuasion becomes SOPHISTRY, the counterfeit of rhetoric -- but still very effective in public persasion. It is especially effective if the propaganda content triggers an emotional response that persuades the listners that examining the evidence is not necessary.
For example, the DI-IRIE work and cheering for DD became a part of their noble-speaker ethos, helping to persuade people to go along with their urgings for decisional neutrality on voting NO while they developed their "working paper" on their fictional ECI. The ECI, with a lot of help from deceitul claims for it, became an emotional propaganda trigger, keeping many people from examining the evidence. Note that this sophistry campaign of DI-IRIE's also delayed your Alt EU Constitution project to where it is now -- in a deep hole. The point is that SOPHISTRY, loaded with lies and unethical intent, can still be very effective public persuasion.
Aristotle's analysis of public persuasion's components of logos-ethos-pathos was so comprehensive 2300 years ago that no significant element has been added since. Of course, the elements of persuasion change and are increased in number when it goes inside science & technology and is used in peer-to-peer persuasion. But that is another story.
Note that recruiting for the Blue Ribbon panel and for the working authors/editors/PR-people group can be done simultaneously, and there might be individuals who are in both lists, but the two groups are and should be separate.
Don't let your PR person forget "Expatica -- Netherlands". You probably already know, but it is an online news and helper service for English-speaking ex-patriots living in the Netherlands. There will be strong connections there to young Dutch professionals, of course -- through marriage, employment, sports, etc. If you don't already have them bookmarked on your computer, they are at
[From Eric:]
> Stephen, if you were advising against presenting something
> purporting to be a complete Alternative EU Constitution, I think
> you are right. Simply becuae there is no enough time for such a
> massive task, ... .
Eric and I agree, Filia. At least most of your "EVERYONE'S A CITIZEN BABY" project and text should be scrapped.
And, sorry, but it is on you to re-group and make the new beginning, whether you do it with a comparison & contrast project or with some other approach.
If I can help with smoothing the English language version as you go along -- grammatical endings and such -- I'll be happy to do so.
Still a high-struggle day here. Sorry if this seems dis-jointed. More food, health-drinks, and bed rest
===============================================
| Date: |
Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:52:58 +0200 |
| Subject: |
Re: Neitzke and, what's more, Den Hollander |
| From: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| To: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net>, "Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
Hi,
Thanks for catching up on my cry for assistance.
I’m writing a longer email, using our last two emails, to inform and mobilize everybody. Also to give you a full idea of the state of affairs of this project.
I know of a “reader friendly” version by Jens Peter Bonde, no informal ones. In The Netherlands ―in Dutch- they are offering shortened versions.
I may need “time breaks” and ask you to rephrase things, sometimes there are 3 words in one sentence which I have to look up in dictionaries...
Let’s also continue to keep an eye on your ―Stephen’s― health.
Filia
==============================================
Things started to go wrong from here:
==============================================
| Date: |
Sun, 03 Apr 2005 20:34:53 +0200 |
| Subject: |
To Stephen and Eric, |
| From: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| To: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net>, "Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
Hi Stephen and Eric,
Sorry about not responding anymore. I got lost on what to do. I’m still in quite a few dilemma’s, but realized I should speak with Mauricio and with Jeanne, for they are my direct partners. So currently I’m trying to get a hold on them.
It may be that on a practical level your advice will not be followed. What works for one person (do a scientific research, find a couple of people who do the PR) may not work for the other person and I started all sorts of but-but-but explanations to Stephen, only to realize that I felt disempowered even though I know you meant well. And this ―you meaning well― I appreciate very much. The advices were too quick and I wanted to be helped/assisted too eagerly.
That’s it for now.
Filia
____________________________________________________
|
From: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
| To: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| CC: |
"Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
| Subject: |
Re: To Stephen and Eric, |
| Date: |
Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:58:43 -0500 |
Feeling disempowered? You wig off into an emotional frenzy of your own making and then create some way to make me guilty of some part of it? Twice in less than three weeks? You will not get a third opportunity. Do not ask questions. Do not ask for advice.
_____________________________________________________
| Date: |
Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:50:37 +0200 (CEST) |
| Subject: |
Re: To Stephen and Eric, |
| From: |
fkdh(at)xs4all.nl |
| To: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
| CC: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl>, "Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
Stephen,
Who's making who feel guilty? Again (like last time when I gave
feedback),
there's nuances in things. People interact. I was trying to let you
know
why I wasn't responding. Ask for advice is one thing, follow the advice
is
another. It's the person receiving the advice who has to consider
whether
it fits or not, or, to what extent it fits. I wasn't asking you to
become
my leader, nor have I ever asked you to become my saviour.
I know you meant well. But you're not the leader nor the initiator of
this
project. So you're not in charge and you're not the one who goes flat
on
their face if things go wrong. I'm surprised, again, that I have to
explain these kinds of things to people your age.
Emotional frenzy is also called trust; giving people my trust.
Sometimes I
handle things well, sometimes I don't. If I get beaten up, or otherwise
have to deal with people who are unable to perform some
self-reflection,
or are not willing to see that I was trying to give an objective
response
(I ALSO said that I was too eager in wanting to be helped, i.e. I DO
acknowledge my mistake in this), then they're not worth my trust. For
sure
I do not want to end up in some sort of emotional symbiosis where my
role
is that of some mother-type and yours is that of a 15 year old boy and
I
have to spell every millimeter out to you or have to not say things
because you might be insulted in one way or another. So make your
choice.
Life is easy for you; you're a clear-cut, straight forward personality.
I'm not; I hesitate, have doubts, stumble and fall before I do things
right and because of this I develope reasonably in a straight line but
slow. I'm not clear-cut. And, yes, I will make many, many more
mistakes.
And again, I don't think this is the first time you get this sort of
feedback. I f you're a friend or if you want me to develope my skills
and
role in this DD movement, then please give me some space to breathe.
That's it for now.
Filia
___________________________________________________
| From: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
| To: |
fkdh(at)xs4all.nl |
| CC: |
"Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
| Subject: |
Re: To Stephen and Eric, |
| Date: |
Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:33:05 -0500 |
No third opportunity -- ever.
=============================================
| Date: |
Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:26:17 +0200 |
| Subject: |
Re: To Stephen and Eric, |
| From: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| To: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
| CC: |
"Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
Hi Eric and Stephen,
I just discussed the situation with Jeanne, who is much more experienced with such matters than I am. She advised and I agreed to do all options:
-"comparison and contrast" presentation
-find a replacement for Ken Kostyo
-try Jiri’s Jitka Smidova in Prague
-try Thomas Thijssen’s connection
-do an open appeal in Dutch and English, I’d written it over the weekend and Jeanne is now editing it
-Whatever new idea comes to mind
I’ve only met Jeanne since this project, and she’s extremely busy, so I had it not yet in my system that I should contact her first. I’ve phoned her today, although I meet with her this Friday, because each day is a day less time to achieve what I/we need (publishing in newspapers, and in Jeanne’s kick-off letter in time).
I can understand Stephen’s irritation over my first dragging you both into something and then say: Oh, sorry, I have to contact so-and-so first. Entirely my
mistake!
Regards to both,
Filia
===================================
After 10 days, a personal message from Filia to me:
==============================================
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:08:27 +0200 |
| Subject: |
To Eric |
| From: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| To: |
"Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
Dear Eric,
Could you clarify to me how to interpret your silence? After and also during the encounter between Stephen and I, you and I haven’t had any contact.
Regards,
Filia
___________________________________________________
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:53:42 -0700 (PDT) |
| From: |
"lpc1998" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
| Subject: |
Re: To Eric |
| To: |
"Filia" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
Hi Filia, thanks for your message.
Stephen is well-informed, dedicated and capable, but unfortunately his approach to discussion tends to be too personal, too certain and makes enemies out of people including his natural allies and those who are appreciative of his views. Furthermore, because of his health, I do not want to lock in into intensive arguments with him.
As regard your appeal for your project, EVERYONE'S A CITIZEN BABY, it requires time and intensity commitments that are beyond me at the moment. I should not bite on something that is too much for me to chew. Moreover, I shall be away from home in June 2005 and may not have ready access to the computer.
However, I shall chip in wherever I could make a meaningful contribution. In this connection, I have already drawn attention to Articles I-10.2(a) and (b) of the Draft EU Contitution where European states with small populations are apparently vulnerable to a constitutional takeover by the relatively huge states. Jiri and Stephen have understood the implications of my message and have responded to it.
Have a nice day and take good care of yourself,
Best Regards
Eric
PS: Have you confirmed your unconditional acceptance of the other applicants for the Initial Membership of the renewed WDDM. This is important and legally necessary.
Mirek's process of renewal for WDDM has the potential for the new WDDM to develop into a huge global community runned on true democratic principles where a People's Constitution could slowly evolve. I shall be giving him full support wherever I could.
___________________________________________________
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:52:48 +0200 |
| Subject: |
Re: To Eric |
| From: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| To: |
"Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
Hi Eric,
Starting with your PS, yes, Mirek has asked me the same question and I had misunderstood my position, thought I was too much of a newcomer. And yes, I think Mirek is doing a good job ― should get all of our support.
Related to EVERYONE'S A CITIZEN BABY, I’ll keep you on the “what’s-going-on list” and appreciate whatever you can contribute.
Related to Stephen, tsja... I don’t think I have access to him anymore. I can try one more time. It could be of help if you publicly support me, write “Filia has a point” or something like that. See what you can do.
Will you be away far, and long?
And, it’s really hard to find the time and energy to get hold of all the good information and actually read it. I regret this and at some point I have to forgive myself for it. (Pathetic “arms in the air”)
Warm regards,
Filia
====================================
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:53:33 +0200 |
| Subject: |
To Stephen (cc Eric): 1-health and 2-rationality |
| From: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| To: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
| CC: |
"Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
Dear Stephen,
How is your health doing? It’s been quiet between you and me, and I’m starting to wonder whether I should call these people. But perhaps you have kept in contact with Eric?
The other point is something I would like you to consider on rational, i.e. argumental grounds.
You and I can become enemies now because of our human errors and incapacities. Not really enemies but non-supportive. I think this is a shame and counter productive in relation towards our DD cause, a cause which we both carry in our hearts and which is also necessary in the world to improve. I think we are natural allies and I’m appreciative of your views and your being well-informed. And I think you appreciate my participation and engagement too. Should we throw things overboard and not exchange views and experiences, an exchange which is necessary for any good development of any important topic, and be then destructive ― in any
case not constructive ― towards our common goals?
What do you need to make peace with me, i.e. how can I accommodate you?
What message of yours do you need me to understand, which you think I haven’t yet, as a condition for you and I to work together again?
Regards,
Filia
===================================
Please note that my following email to Stephen cc Filia was written in response to her request for help: "It could be of help if you publicly support me, write “Filia has a point” or something like that. See what you can do."
===================================
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:42:28 -0700 (PDT) |
| From: |
"lpc1998" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
| Subject: |
Filia den Hollander |
| To: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
| CC: |
"Filia" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
Hi Stephen,
I was about to send you a note enquiring about your health when I saw your interesting response to Bruce on Mark Morford's column yesterday.
As regard Filia, you and me, we are 3 very different individuals with very different experiences and approaches to the issues of common concern to us. We have plenty to learn from each of us and our challenge is how to cooperate with each other without being overwhelmed by our differences.
I do understand how you feel when Filia becomes very pushy with what concerns her most without realizing the personal problems and limitations of her partners. However, she is basically a very nice and warm lady whom I am glad to have made friends. And without her implusiveness, she would have made a great friend indeed.
As regard your TRG proposal, I have been to your website and made some Google searches, but I am still unable to locate a full comprehensive text of the latest Nebraska Constitution. Only I have more time, I would be able to do a better job.
Best Regards
Eric
____________________________________________________
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:03:35 -0700 (PDT) |
| From: |
"lpc1998" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
| Subject: |
Re(1): To Eric |
| To: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
I have just written to Stephen with cc to you. If it does not work, then let him cool down first. In the meantime, I would continue to support his position wherever and whenever I could.
Yes, I shall be away for the first 3 or 4 weeks of June 2005.
You are right. Time and energy are what we lack most because we have work and personal matters to attend to. So when we are pressed by things getting urgent we lose focus on our democracy projects.
Cheers!
Eric
===============================================
Filia is furious:
===============================================
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:00:27 +0200 |
| Subject: |
Re: Filia den Hollander |
| From: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| To: |
"Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com>, "Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
Dear Eric,
Our one-to-one emails included into considerations too, where you evaluated Stephen and said not to want to go into arguments with him because of his bad medical condition, as well as that I at least twice had stretched out my hand to Stephen, not the other way around, this below message is at the cost of me, it’s macho and it’s manipulative.
It’s a good example of contemporary suppression of women by men, and I’m happy to bcc it to some members of the NVOA (Network of Woman Organization Advisors). We have a work-group there which investigates on how we can give emancipation a new swing. Whether intentionally or unintentionally done by you, the result is the same ―and so is your responsibility for it― and we need to analyze these matters in order to be able to adequately rebuke them. For I’m a strong believer that silence, or ignoring, is in fact approval or in any case not helping development to take place.
Trying to
turn this into a moment where we all can learn, as well as genuinely angry,
Regards,
Filia
_________________________________________
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Apr 2005 03:46:28 -0700 (PDT) |
| From: |
"lpc1998" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
| Subject: |
Re: Filia den Hollander |
| To: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| CC: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
Dear Filia,
Are you angry with my email to Stephen (cc to you)? If you do, I am indeed very, very surprised.
Apparently, you have found it macho, manipulative and a good example of contemporary suppression of women by men.
Since you have referred it to the Network of Woman Organization Advisors for investigation into your charges, I am reserving further comments until the results of their investigation are known.
Cheers!
Eric
___________________________________________________
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:32:53 +0200 |
| Subject: |
Re: Filia den Hollander |
| From: |
"Filia den Hollander" <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> |
| To: |
"Eric Lim" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
| CC: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
I don’t accept peace-making at my expense.
Kind regards,
Filia
==================================
After this, Filia made serious public accusations against me at WDDM with her two emails. (See the more serious one right at the bottom of this email). What she has said elsewhere or privately, I do not know.
==================================
Now Filia, please:
(1) Check whether I have left out any relevant emails as listed out above. If I have, post them at WDDM as soon as possible cc Stephen.
(2) Elaborate and explain your accusations against me. I really don't understand them.
=================================================
Filia, you have asked me for help when you are having difficulties with Stephen. You said: "It could be of help if you publicly support me, write “Filia has a point” or something like that. See what you can do." I have done more than writing "Filia has a point". I have in fact given Stephen a 'lecture':
"As regard Filia, you and me, we are 3 very different individuals with very different experiences and approaches to the issues of common concern to us. We have plenty to learn from each of us and our challenge is how to cooperate with each other without being overwhelmed by our differences."
I have told Stephen something that a person of his intellect and experience should know. In fact, I was more concern about him feeling insulted and aggravating further his medical conditions which he has made known to all of us, especially to you and me.
What I have told Stephen about you (quoted below) in private and among friends (because only the 3 of us were present) is something, I believe, anyone who knows you well would know including yourself. If it were something you really do not know, then I am telling you I was saying it to Stephen 'in front of you' (i.e. email cc to you) because I thought you were my friend.
"I do understand how you feel when Filia becomes very pushy with what concerns her most without realizing the personal problems and limitations of her partners. However, she is basically a very nice and warm lady whom I am glad to have made friends. And without her implusiveness, she would have made a great friend indeed."
Best Regards
Eric Lim (lpc1998)
===================================
Email from Stephen consenting to making the relevant private emails public:
| From: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> |
| To: |
"lpc1998" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
| Subject: |
Re: On Filia's accusations against me (Eric lim) |
| Date: |
Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:03:44 -0500 |
Eric --
You have my consent to make public any email of mine, on any topic, including Filia.
This over-emotional nonsense of hers toward you is, unfortunately, quite in line with the twisted guilt trips she laid on me in (1) her desperation over not wanting to alienate others from her because of her association with me and my strongly-argued positions on the ECI, and (2) her desperation over having waited too long, and not having recruited the competent volunteers, to adequately complete her alternative EU constitution before the Netherlands referendum.
Your readers should know that her assigning me the guilt for her desperation in those two circumstances was why you were attemting to bridge the growing gap between her and myself. Her over-emotional nonsense is doubly useless and harmful. You would not have been able to bridge the gap -- and I hold her responsible for knowing and understanding that quite well.
I'm very sorry that her twistings drive her to insult you and to make all this public. It was very unnecessary. It was a personal matter that should have been kept between she and I.
=====================================
| Date: |
Sun, 17 Apr 2005 04:39:34 -0700 (PDT) |
| From: |
"lpc1998" <lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com> |
| Subject: |
On Filia's accusations against me (Eric lim) |
| To: |
"Stephen Neitzke" <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net>, wddm@world-wide-democracy.net |
Hi Stephen,
Filia has made at the WDDM some very serious public accussations against me arising from the 3-person private email exchanges (Filia, Stephen and Eric).
My best defence now is to make all relevant emails public. May I have your consent to make them public?
Best Regards
Eric
Filia den Hollander <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> wrote:
Hello,
Thank you for your replies; both backstage and “onstage”.
My last email was pain driven, based on bad experiences of the past. I hope people understood this and can forgive me for the “rash” gesture which was in it. Of course I understand that each situation, each composition of people differs and thus new situations should be given a chance rather than put in the line of old, bad experiences.
Related to Eric Lim and Stephen Neitzke I wish to make a couple of comments (Eric is on the WDDM list, Stephen isn’t). I hope it is understood not as personal attacks but (A) as an explanation of what exactly freaked me out, and (B) as a comment on respectful conduct in general.
-Eric tried to damage my sovereignty in a play between one-to-one emails and public (Stephen included) emails. Further explanation is unnecessary, I think we all know the
experience of being manipulated and of activities on the cost of oneself and in the case of Eric and Stephen Eric tried to manoeuvre me in the situation of a “lesser species” (macho is the word for that).
-Stephen and I got in an argument about “tone”. Need I say more? I criticized his and then was simply put aside. (Cc to Stephen)
Related to tone, everybody sings with the voice they have, so it’s hard ―even ridiculous― to make some sort of code of conduct of it. But if one person criticizes something of somebody else (and did so discretely privately), I think it should be understood that this is meant for constructive reasons. If there is no self-reflection on the comment, but rather the commenting person soon becomes a non-person (eliminated out of the dialogue), then the issue of respect comes in.
Related to damaging one’s sovereignty ― that’s just simply intolerable, especially in a democratic community. I hope Eric realizes this for else we can, shall and will
have trouble in the future. I would appreciate an apology, for else I will stay on my qui-vive (on my guard). Moreover, I will in general guard the respect of everyone’s sovereignty and of fair conduct towards one another.
Some people may experience these comments as “going personal” or as “personal attacks”. To me it is very simple. If a government or institution does something wrong, they usually become warned from the inside. If the institution ignores this or compromises the warning person(s), then at some point these warning person(s) go to the media. They do this in order to get the issue to the common consciousness, and to make it impossible (hopefully) for the institution to silently, secretive, continue their conduct.
I’ve learned that one can apply the same to individual situations. I “objectify” situations, i.e. make public not because I want to nail some bastard down (or whatever language belongs to it) but to make the issue, not the person, subject
to common debate and digestion. (To intellectualize, it’s turning an “ad hominem” into an “ad casu”.)
Perhaps superfluous, here’s another example. I read somewhere an article on women abuse. A man would beat up his wife. Then they didn’t catch this guy but they spread the news out in the community. So the man would simply get the response of: “Ah, you’re the guy who beats up his wife?”. The abuse stopped.
This is the role of communities and I think we can be aware of this and develop it.
Related to new applicants, in terms of procedure, I would advise that the moderator asks for the people who have experience with this new applicant, to come forward first.
I have a problem with Antonio Rossin, not with him as a person but with the way he debates. He throws in a subject and when the subject is tackled he shifts the subject and always has the last say. On top of this, if someone rebukes him (not sure if I use this term correct), he somehow
gets to you on a personal level. Especially with this subject shifting, we then run the risk of never being able to move forward.
With this I’m not saying I’m for or against his participation. I don’t know ― would it be possible or even desirable to allow participation if someone accepts certain conditions beforehand?
Having said all this, I haven’t followed all debates between Antonio and others. So it might be that his contributions are very valuable on the subjects which I haven’t closely followed.
Well ― that’s it. This became a long email. Thank you for bearing with me.
Kind regards,
Filia (who is flexible with the term “temporary” ;-)
PS Being the only woman in this environment does of course NOT mean that I can in one form or another, blackmail this forum with it. And, yes, I think we should encourage other women to participate.
==================================
Stephen Neitzke <stephen(at)ddleague-usa.net> wrote:
Eric --
I'm sorry that your honesty with me has landed you in this mess with Filia. I'm still flabbergasted at her response to you. I was sure that you were safe from her emotional tirades.
I have had perhaps too much experience with people, both men and women, who allow their emotions to rule. Denial of the words and actions that they have used to lash out at others seems a universal behavior with them. Re-defining their own harmful words and actions, so that they make themselves look good and the ones they have harmed look suspect, seems also a universal behavior. For both of those behaviors, and others, I have come to not trust such people. (Trust is everything.) The damage that they can do is all out of proportion to their significance.
I am not referring to simple impulsiveness here. I am a spontaneous and impulsive person -- when reason allows, and only for the simple entertainment of myself and others. People who allow their emotions to rule -- especially in times of fear, panic, desperation, manipulation of others, self-loathing, etc. -- are much more than simply impulsive. They are dangerous.
I will not hesitate to help DD-I&R where and when I can, even if Filia is involved. But my ever trusting her again is not possible.
My health is improving, very slowly, but improving.
I did not mention it earlier, but in the last days of February -- after losing the entire month of February in a timeless fog -- I discovered that there is such a thing as mercury poisoning from the seafood sold here. Our industrial smokestacks have put so much mercury into the air, for so long, that its re-deposit at the bottom of the aquatic food chain has now passed up to us.
In the last days of February, I happened onto a TV program in which Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., was being interviewed about mercury poisoning. Bobbie Junior is, as you probably know, an important lawyeer for environmental causes. The information that he gave in that short interview sent me straight to the Internet for more information.
Swordfish, lobster, pacific halibut, tuna, and albacore are my favorite seafood meals. I routinely had meals of them five to six times per week -- for years. They are loaded with mercury. Having one meal of any of those every week would challenge the human body.
Clams, oysters, shrimp, pacific salmon, tilapia, sardines, and trout -- all low mercury.
See Consumer Reports
See National Research Center for Women and Families
The interactions between my conditions are amazingly complicated. Although mercury poisoning has its primary effects on the nervous system, I will not be surprised if I someday find out that it could have triggered this long period of misery. I know that some of my heart problems are related to "electrical blockages" -- nervous system malfunctions that can cause bad heart rhythums -- one of my central problems.
In the last days of February, the constant tremors in my hands were bad enough that they were adversely affecting my typing on the keyboard.
If one stops the intake of mercury, the normal body will eliminate the poison in about 50 days, according to most authorities. That depends on normal kidney function. My kidney function is sub-normal. Nonetheless, after 48 days of no mercury intake, the tremors in my hands are gone -- and my health continues to slowly improve.
The interactions between my conditions are too complicated for me to think that removal of the mercury will allow the body to return to my more-or-less normal. But it sure feels that way right now.
Between mad cow and seafood mercury poisoning, US fascist corporatism has stuck us with an unsafe food supply. More DD-I&R motivation. More peaceful revolution motivation.
Please feel free to argue with me about anything.
Hope that the links to US state constitutions generally, and to Nebraska's specifically, will be a help for you. BTW, the Nebraska provisions for I&R are very typical among the I&R states. While they look good at first glance, however, they are too vague. Their vagueness helps the predator politicians to arbitrarily control them. There are several phrases and sentences of specific details that are needed to clean up those I&R provisions for the people.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 5:46 AM
Subject: Re: Filia den Hollander
Dear Filia,
Are you angry with my email to Stephen (cc to you)? If you do, I am indeed very, very surprised.
Apparently, you have found it macho, manipulative and a good example of contemporary suppression of women by men.
Since you have referred it to the Network of Woman Organization Advisors for investigation into your charges, I am reserving further comments until the results of their investigation are known.
Cheers!
Eric
Filia den Hollander <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> wrote:
Dear Eric,
Our one-to-one emails included into considerations too, where you evaluated Stephen and said not to want to go into arguments with him because of his bad medical condition, as well as that I at least twice had stretched out my hand to Stephen, not the other way around, this below message is at the cost of me, it’s macho and it’s manipulative.
It’s a good example of contemporary suppression of women by men, and I’m happy to bcc it to some members of the NVOA (Network of Woman Organization Advisors). We have a work-group there which investigates on how we can give emancipation a new swing. Whether intentionally or unintentionally done by you, the result is the same ―and so is your responsibility for it― and we need to analyze these matters in order to be able to adequately rebuke them. For I’m a strong believer that silence, or ignoring, is in
fact approval or in any case not helping development to take place.
Trying to turn this into a moment where we all can learn, as well as genuinely angry,
Regards,
Filia
op 15-04-2005 14:42 schreef lpc1998 op lpc1998(at)lpc1998.com:
Hi Stephen,
I was about to send you a note enquiring about your health when I saw your interesting response to Bruce on Mark Morford's column yesterday.
As regard Filia, you and me, we are 3 very different individuals with very different experiences and approaches to the issues of common concern to us. We have plenty to learn from each of us and our challenge is how to cooperate with each other without being overwhelmed by our differences.
I do understand how you feel when Filia becomes very pushy with what concerns her most without realizing the personal problems and limitations of her partners. However, she is basically a very nice and warm lady whom I am glad to have made friends. And without her impulsiveness, she would have made a great friend indeed.
As regard your TRG proposal, I have been to your website and made some Google searches, but I am still unable to locate a full comprehensive text
of the latest Nebraska Constitution. Only I have more time, I would be able to do a better job.
Best Regards
Eric
Filia den Hollander <fkdh(at)xs4all.nl> wrote:
Dear Stephen,
How is your health doing? It’s been quiet between you and me, and I’m starting to wonder whether I should call these people. But perhaps you have kept in contact with Eric?
The other point is something I would like you to consider on rational, i.e. argumental grounds.
You and I can become enemies now because of our human errors and incapacities. Not really enemies but non-supportive. I think this is a shame and counter productive in relation towards our direct democracy cause, a cause which we both carry in our hearts and which is also necessary in the world to improve. I think we are natural allies and I’m appreciative of your views and your being well-informed. And I think you appreciate my participation and engagement too. Should we throw things overboard and not exchange views and experiences, an exchange which is necessary for any good development of any important topic, and be then destructive - in any
case not constructive - towards our common goals?
What do you need to make peace with me, i.e. how can I accommodate you?
What message of yours do you need me to understand, which you think I haven’t yet, as a condition for you and I to work together again?
Regards,
Filia